11 ms·

I don't support how civilians are being treated in Palestine whatsoever, but: >while condemning the massacre of civilians under the orders of Likud (and other

I don't support how civilians are being treated in Palestine whatsoever, but: >while condemning the massacre of civilians under the orders of Likud (and other far right parties) When has Likud ordered massacres of civilians? Or when has any modern Israeli party? I also don't believe Likud is considered far-right in Israel; just "right". There are parties far to the right of them. Not that that's necessarily a good thing, but it's a relative designation.

jakelazaroff 3y ago
Here is a long list of Israeli politicians and military officers who have declared their intent to massacre civilians: - Israeli Prime Minister (!!) Benjamin Netanyahu: "You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. And we do remember." [1] - IDF spokesman Daniel Hagari: "we're focused on what causes maximum damage" [2] - Israeli defense Minister Yoav Gallant: "I have ordered a complete siege on Gaza: no electricity, no food, no fuel, no water. Everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we will act accordingly." [3] - Israeli Minister of National Security Itamar Ben-Gvir: “As long as Hamas does not release the hostages in its hands - the only thing that needs to enter Gaza are hundreds of tons of explosives from the air force, not an ounce of humanitarian aid” [4] - IDF Reservist Major General Giora Eiland: “The State of Israel has no choice but to turn Gaza into a place that is temporarily or permanently impossible to live in" and "Creating a severe humanitarian crisis in Gaza is a necessary means to achieve the goal." [5] - Israeli President Isaac Herzog: "It is not true this rhetoric about civilians not being aware, not involved. It’s absolutely not true." and "Of course there are many, many innocent Palestinians who don’t agree to this — but unfortunately in their homes, there are missiles shooting at us, at my children." [6] - IDF Reservist Ezra Yachin: "Be triumphant and finish them off and don’t leave anyone behind. Erase the memory of them. Erase them, their families, mothers and children. These animals can no longer live." and "Every Jew with a weapon should go out and kill them. If you have an Arab neighbour, don’t wait, go to his home and shoot him." [7] - IDF Reservist Major General Giora Eiland: "The international community is warning us against a severe humanitarian disaster and severe epidemics. We must not shy away from this. After all, severe epidemics in the south of Gaza will bring victory closer" and "there’s no reason why the Hamas generals in southern Gaza wouldn’t surrender when they have no fuel, no water, and when plagues will reach them and the danger to the lives of their family members will increase" [8] - Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant: "Hezbollah is close to making a grave mistake. The ones who will pay the price are first of all the citizens of Lebanon. What we do in Gaza we know how to do in Beirut" [9] - Israeli Minister for Agriculture and former head of Shin Bet Avi Dichter: "We are now actually rolling out the Gaza Nakba" [10] - Likud Knesset member Galit Distel-Atbaryan: "Invest this energy in one thing; Erasing all of Gaza from the face of the earth." and "A vengeful and cruel IDF is needed here. Anything less is immoral." [11] - Israeli Energy Minister Israel Katz: "Humanitarian aid to Gaza? No electrical switch will be turned on, no water pump will be opened and no fuel truck will enter until the Israeli abductees are returned home" [12] - IDF Lt. Col. Richard Hecht, in response to Wolf Blitzer asking if the IDF knew there were civilians in Jabalya refugee camp before they bombed it: "This is the tragedy of war, Wolf — as you know, we've been saying for days, move south." [13] [1] https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2023/11/benjamin-netanyahu-amalek-israel-palestine-gaza-saul-samuel-old-testament/ https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2023/11/benjamin-netany... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/10/right-now-it-is-one-day-at-a-time-life-on-israels-frontline-with-gaza https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/10/right-now-it-i... [3] https://twitter.com/marwasf/status/1711392643908071789 https://twitter.com/marwasf/status/1711392643908071789 [4] https://x.com/davidrkadler/status/1714362716565979534 https://x.com/davidrkadler/status/1714362716565979534 [5] https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/15/opinion/israel-united-states-gaza.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/15/opinion/israel-united-sta... [6] https://www.huffpost.com/entry/israel-gaza-isaac-herzog_n_65295ee8e4b03ea0c004e2a8 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/israel-gaza-isaac-herzog_n_65... [7] https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-palestine-war-veteran-ezra-yachin-soldiers-erase-children https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-palestine-war-vete... [8] https://twitter.com/hahauenstein/status/1726326606782984506 https://twitter.com/hahauenstein/status/1726326606782984506 [9] https://twitter.com/alihashem_tv/status/1723369208191287738 https://twitter.com/alihashem_tv/status/1723369208191287738 [10] https://twitter.com/hahauenstein/status/1723441134221869453 https://twitter.com/hahauenstein/status/1723441134221869453 [11] https://twitter.com/GalitDistel/status/1719689095230730656 https://twitter.com/GalitDistel/status/1719689095230730656 [12] https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/energy-minister-no-electricity-or-water-to-gaza-until-abductees-returned-home/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/energy-minister... [13] https://twitter.com/justinbaragona/status/1719412278351507487 https://twitter.com/justinbaragona/status/171941227835150748...
- YZF 3y ago
  Hagari was not speaking about massacring civilians. He was talking about damage to Hamas/military targets. He did say that Israel is biased towards more damage vs. accuracy. This is very propaganda. I've been following the conflict pretty closely and I speak Hebrew. The parent is correct, there is and was no order to massacre civilians. It's probably safe to say that protecting Palestinian civilians is not Israel's main priority, but there's a big difference between that and painting a picture of Israel trying to massacre as many civilians as possible.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - jakelazaroff 3y ago
    Is that meant to be exculpatory? If you say that you're attacking military targets that are (allegedly) embedded within civilian infrastructure and that you're focused on damage rather than accuracy, you are telling me that you intend to massacre civilians.
    - YZF 3y ago
      I think there's a difference in emphasis and intent. We're painting pictures here. So one picture we're painting is "kill as many civilians a possible with no other military objective" and the other picture we're painting is "go after military targets even at some cost to civilians (and the question of that cost)". The reality is that in every way, every military in the world, executes the second picture. The variable being what is a reasonable threshold for the given military objective. The accusations against Israel intentionally try to place it in the first picture. If the critics were clear about their issue being how Israel measures proportionality with respect to every single target they go after, and they were able to support their case comparing to other similar military campaigns, and there was a very clear outcome of that comparison, I think that's very fair and I'd even be able to get behind it. But that's not what the critics are doing.
      - 3y ago
IOT_Apprentice 3y ago
I suspect you ignore the history of terrorism by Irgun and the bombing of the King David Hotel, which house the British military command. Menachem Begin was a key player in that attack & was extremely proud of it. Who are the modern day parties following in those footsteps? Why Likud, & Begin was a co-founder of that very party— now led by Netanyahu.
- YZF 3y ago
  I think dang made a mistake by allowing this topic onto HN. Nothing good is going to come out of that. Begin is rolling in his grave as we speak. There is nothing between today's Likud and any historic version of that party. That's one thing. The Likud (under the leadership of Sharon, who is also rolling in his grave) is also the party that withdrew from Gaza and handed it to the Palestinian Authority, dismantling settlements (by force). The Likud (under Begin's leadership) was the party that made peace with Egypt and gave Sinai back, also dismantling Israeli settlements (by force). I don't think the history of the Irgun is really relevant here. At any rate, the views of the Likud shifted substantially and current party called "Likud" has really zero connection to the Likud at the time of Begin/Shamir/Sharon etc.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > dang made a mistake by allowing this topic Strongly disagree. There are honest debates and questions here. I am learning from them, though I’m also fact checking everything that surprises.
    - YZF 3y ago
      Too loaded. Too complex. Too many strong emotions/feelings. Destruction, death, loss. Amplified. Weaponized. I know I feel very strongly and it's hard to put things in objective terms. You need to zoom in, zoom out, the history is vast, there's the big picture, there are details. Most of what you'll encounter online and in the media, on both sides really, is propaganda.
      - 3y ago
yodsanklai 3y ago
> When has Likud ordered massacres of civilians? Considering that they killed 15K+ civilians in various ways in just a couple of weeks , and bombed two thirds of the buildings in north gaza including hospitals, refugee camps, they were certainly not trying very hard not to kill them. So practically, this doesn't make a big difference. It seems the order were "bomb anything that may have a hamas member nearby, and don't bother about any civilian nearby (even israelis hostages).
- dlubarov 3y ago
  "Not trying very hard not to kill them" may be true, but that is still vastly different from a "massacre," which is deliberate by definition.
- edanm 3y ago
  I don't think you can possibly know that they killed 15k civilians. Those numbers are reported by Hamas and don't contain a breakdown of civilian vs. militant. That doesn't change the tragedy of innocents being killed - that's still a horrible tragedy. But Israel is not going around just killing civilians for no reason, as that number makes it seem.
  - peanuty1 3y ago
    The UN has reported that 7,729 children and 5,153 women have been killed (by Israel) in Gaza as of Dec 8, 2023. https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impact-day-63 https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-i... Also, since you mention civilian vs militant casualties, it might be worth mentioning that hundreds of the Israeli casualties on Oct 7 were Israeli soldiers.
    - edanm 3y ago
      The UN is just repeating the same gazan ministry of health numbers, as the link points it explicitly. And yes, it's not a secret that in addition to the hundreds of civilians that Hamas targeted, it also attacked military bases. (Though also worth mentioning that it's illegal to kill soldiers too, if they've surrendered and/or don't have weapons on them.) But yes, I think Hamas targeting bases is one reason I consider this to be an invasion into Israel. Since Hamas has promised to invade again and again, it's very clear that it cannot be lived with peacefully.
Georgelemental 3y ago
Ariel Sharon was a member of Likud until 2005, and Israeli PM 2001-2006. An official enquiry found him responsible for the massacre of thousands of civilians: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre

jakelazaroff 3y ago

Here is a long list of Israeli politicians and military officers who have declared their intent to massacre civilians: - Israeli Prime Minister (!!) Benjamin Netanyahu: "You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. And we do remember." [1] - IDF spokesman Daniel Hagari: "we're focused on what causes maximum damage" [2] - Israeli defense Minister Yoav Gallant: "I have ordered a complete siege on Gaza: no electricity, no food, no fuel, no water. Everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we will act accordingly." [3] - Israeli Minister of National Security Itamar Ben-Gvir: “As long as Hamas does not release the hostages in its hands - the only thing that needs to enter Gaza are hundreds of tons of explosives from the air force, not an ounce of humanitarian aid” [4] - IDF Reservist Major General Giora Eiland: “The State of Israel has no choice but to turn Gaza into a place that is temporarily or permanently impossible to live in" and "Creating a severe humanitarian crisis in Gaza is a necessary means to achieve the goal." [5] - Israeli President Isaac Herzog: "It is not true this rhetoric about civilians not being aware, not involved. It’s absolutely not true." and "Of course there are many, many innocent Palestinians who don’t agree to this — but unfortunately in their homes, there are missiles shooting at us, at my children." [6] - IDF Reservist Ezra Yachin: "Be triumphant and finish them off and don’t leave anyone behind. Erase the memory of them. Erase them, their families, mothers and children. These animals can no longer live." and "Every Jew with a weapon should go out and kill them. If you have an Arab neighbour, don’t wait, go to his home and shoot him." [7] - IDF Reservist Major General Giora Eiland: "The international community is warning us against a severe humanitarian disaster and severe epidemics. We must not shy away from this. After all, severe epidemics in the south of Gaza will bring victory closer" and "there’s no reason why the Hamas generals in southern Gaza wouldn’t surrender when they have no fuel, no water, and when plagues will reach them and the danger to the lives of their family members will increase" [8] - Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant: "Hezbollah is close to making a grave mistake. The ones who will pay the price are first of all the citizens of Lebanon. What we do in Gaza we know how to do in Beirut" [9] - Israeli Minister for Agriculture and former head of Shin Bet Avi Dichter: "We are now actually rolling out the Gaza Nakba" [10] - Likud Knesset member Galit Distel-Atbaryan: "Invest this energy in one thing; Erasing all of Gaza from the face of the earth." and "A vengeful and cruel IDF is needed here. Anything less is immoral." [11] - Israeli Energy Minister Israel Katz: "Humanitarian aid to Gaza? No electrical switch will be turned on, no water pump will be opened and no fuel truck will enter until the Israeli abductees are returned home" [12] - IDF Lt. Col. Richard Hecht, in response to Wolf Blitzer asking if the IDF knew there were civilians in Jabalya refugee camp before they bombed it: "This is the tragedy of war, Wolf — as you know, we've been saying for days, move south." [13] [1] https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2023/11/benjamin-netanyahu-amalek-israel-palestine-gaza-saul-samuel-old-testament/ https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2023/11/benjamin-netany... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/10/right-now-it-is-one-day-at-a-time-life-on-israels-frontline-with-gaza https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/10/right-now-it-i... [3] https://twitter.com/marwasf/status/1711392643908071789 https://twitter.com/marwasf/status/1711392643908071789 [4] https://x.com/davidrkadler/status/1714362716565979534 https://x.com/davidrkadler/status/1714362716565979534 [5] https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/15/opinion/israel-united-states-gaza.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/15/opinion/israel-united-sta... [6] https://www.huffpost.com/entry/israel-gaza-isaac-herzog_n_65295ee8e4b03ea0c004e2a8 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/israel-gaza-isaac-herzog_n_65... [7] https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-palestine-war-veteran-ezra-yachin-soldiers-erase-children https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-palestine-war-vete... [8] https://twitter.com/hahauenstein/status/1726326606782984506 https://twitter.com/hahauenstein/status/1726326606782984506 [9] https://twitter.com/alihashem_tv/status/1723369208191287738 https://twitter.com/alihashem_tv/status/1723369208191287738 [10] https://twitter.com/hahauenstein/status/1723441134221869453 https://twitter.com/hahauenstein/status/1723441134221869453 [11] https://twitter.com/GalitDistel/status/1719689095230730656 https://twitter.com/GalitDistel/status/1719689095230730656 [12] https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/energy-minister-no-electricity-or-water-to-gaza-until-abductees-returned-home/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/energy-minister... [13] https://twitter.com/justinbaragona/status/1719412278351507487 https://twitter.com/justinbaragona/status/171941227835150748...

YZF 3y ago
Hagari was not speaking about massacring civilians. He was talking about damage to Hamas/military targets. He did say that Israel is biased towards more damage vs. accuracy. This is very propaganda. I've been following the conflict pretty closely and I speak Hebrew. The parent is correct, there is and was no order to massacre civilians. It's probably safe to say that protecting Palestinian civilians is not Israel's main priority, but there's a big difference between that and painting a picture of Israel trying to massacre as many civilians as possible.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- jakelazaroff 3y ago
  Is that meant to be exculpatory? If you say that you're attacking military targets that are (allegedly) embedded within civilian infrastructure and that you're focused on damage rather than accuracy, you are telling me that you intend to massacre civilians.
  - YZF 3y ago
    I think there's a difference in emphasis and intent. We're painting pictures here. So one picture we're painting is "kill as many civilians a possible with no other military objective" and the other picture we're painting is "go after military targets even at some cost to civilians (and the question of that cost)". The reality is that in every way, every military in the world, executes the second picture. The variable being what is a reasonable threshold for the given military objective. The accusations against Israel intentionally try to place it in the first picture. If the critics were clear about their issue being how Israel measures proportionality with respect to every single target they go after, and they were able to support their case comparing to other similar military campaigns, and there was a very clear outcome of that comparison, I think that's very fair and I'd even be able to get behind it. But that's not what the critics are doing.
    - 3y ago

IOT_Apprentice 3y ago

I suspect you ignore the history of terrorism by Irgun and the bombing of the King David Hotel, which house the British military command. Menachem Begin was a key player in that attack & was extremely proud of it. Who are the modern day parties following in those footsteps? Why Likud, & Begin was a co-founder of that very party— now led by Netanyahu.

YZF 3y ago
I think dang made a mistake by allowing this topic onto HN. Nothing good is going to come out of that. Begin is rolling in his grave as we speak. There is nothing between today's Likud and any historic version of that party. That's one thing. The Likud (under the leadership of Sharon, who is also rolling in his grave) is also the party that withdrew from Gaza and handed it to the Palestinian Authority, dismantling settlements (by force). The Likud (under Begin's leadership) was the party that made peace with Egypt and gave Sinai back, also dismantling Israeli settlements (by force). I don't think the history of the Irgun is really relevant here. At any rate, the views of the Likud shifted substantially and current party called "Likud" has really zero connection to the Likud at the time of Begin/Shamir/Sharon etc.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > dang made a mistake by allowing this topic Strongly disagree. There are honest debates and questions here. I am learning from them, though I’m also fact checking everything that surprises.
  - YZF 3y ago
    Too loaded. Too complex. Too many strong emotions/feelings. Destruction, death, loss. Amplified. Weaponized. I know I feel very strongly and it's hard to put things in objective terms. You need to zoom in, zoom out, the history is vast, there's the big picture, there are details. Most of what you'll encounter online and in the media, on both sides really, is propaganda.
    - 3y ago

yodsanklai 3y ago

> When has Likud ordered massacres of civilians? Considering that they killed 15K+ civilians in various ways in just a couple of weeks , and bombed two thirds of the buildings in north gaza including hospitals, refugee camps, they were certainly not trying very hard not to kill them. So practically, this doesn't make a big difference. It seems the order were "bomb anything that may have a hamas member nearby, and don't bother about any civilian nearby (even israelis hostages).

dlubarov 3y ago
"Not trying very hard not to kill them" may be true, but that is still vastly different from a "massacre," which is deliberate by definition.
edanm 3y ago
I don't think you can possibly know that they killed 15k civilians. Those numbers are reported by Hamas and don't contain a breakdown of civilian vs. militant. That doesn't change the tragedy of innocents being killed - that's still a horrible tragedy. But Israel is not going around just killing civilians for no reason, as that number makes it seem.
- peanuty1 3y ago
  The UN has reported that 7,729 children and 5,153 women have been killed (by Israel) in Gaza as of Dec 8, 2023. https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-reported-impact-day-63 https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-i... Also, since you mention civilian vs militant casualties, it might be worth mentioning that hundreds of the Israeli casualties on Oct 7 were Israeli soldiers.
  - edanm 3y ago
    The UN is just repeating the same gazan ministry of health numbers, as the link points it explicitly. And yes, it's not a secret that in addition to the hundreds of civilians that Hamas targeted, it also attacked military bases. (Though also worth mentioning that it's illegal to kill soldiers too, if they've surrendered and/or don't have weapons on them.) But yes, I think Hamas targeting bases is one reason I consider this to be an invasion into Israel. Since Hamas has promised to invade again and again, it's very clear that it cannot be lived with peacefully.

Georgelemental 3y ago

Ariel Sharon was a member of Likud until 2005, and Israeli PM 2001-2006. An official enquiry found him responsible for the massacre of thousands of civilians: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_massacre