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I think the fundamental assumption of the analysis that there are two mutually exclusive groups, 'pro-Israel' and 'pro-Palestine' is flawed. It is possible to s

by A1kmm 3y ago

I think the fundamental assumption of the analysis that there are two mutually exclusive groups, 'pro-Israel' and 'pro-Palestine' is flawed. It is possible to simultaneously support the interests of Palestinian and Israeli civilians (and support a peaceful Israel within the 1967 boundaries), while condemning the massacre of civilians under the orders of Likud (and other far right parties) and Hamas. I think it is currently about an order of magnitude more civilians deaths have resulted from the actions of Likud (Netanyahu etc..., who control the government and hence the IDF) than from the actions of Hamas. IDF is apparently disrupting civilian aid, destroying infrastructure including hospitals, and causing mass population movements into areas that cannot support them, so the risk of death from starvation and infectious disease at a massive scale as an indirect result is high. The Likud-controlled IDF are also apparently enforcing a 'lock down' of Palestinian civilians in the West Bank while allowing Israeli citizens to seize land by force and further expand the occupied territories. So the scale of the atrocities seems to be much higher on the Likud side than the Hamas side, covers both the West Bank and Gaza, and it makes sense that the Palestinian victims of those atrocities would receive more support. That doesn't mean that all the people who care about the plight of the Palestinian population are anti-Israel (they are just not posting about it because they are likely prioritising issues).

YZF 3y ago
I don't think any other government in Israel would respond materially differently to Oct 7th. The only response Israel has to this scale of event is to re-occupy Gaza and the only way it can be accomplished without larger casualties on both sides is more or less what is transpiring today. I'm sure there are details that would be different but I don't think the script would be materially different if Likud was not in power. The military plan for re-taking Gaza is from the IDF, not the government. Likud-controlled IDF isn't really a thing, the government gives a target (removing Hamas) and the IDF executes. Any other government would give the same target. What I would and do blame the current government for is that Oct 7th even happened, the scale, and the immediate response. EDIT: I also blame the current government for trying to eliminate any possibility of a two state solution and effectively supporting the Hamas rule in Gaza as means of accomplishing that. I can probably blame them for lots more. That said the actual Oct 7th attack is all on Hamas and the response is pretty much the only response you'd have seen from any Israeli government (or anyone else in that position for that matter). We're in a place today that is a different place and we can talk all we want about what other possible places we could be. I'll agree with you on the west bank policy being a Likud/right-wing policy in general. We can also talk about why the Israeli public is more right wing leaning and the left has all but disappeared. I think those two groups are really more mutually exclusive than what you're trying to portray. At least to most Israelis they are. Because for most Israelis, when you say "peaceful within 1967 borders", it reads as "kill all the Jews in Israel". Many (most?) Palestinians will also not accept this statement because they consider Israel in the 1967 border to be the Palestinian state. If there was an overlap we wouldn't really be where we are, we'd have peace. I have not met many people who are in this overlap, i.e. they're both "pro-Israel" and "pro-Palestine" in a meaningful way. Most people do not hold nuanced views at all, don't know that much about the conflict, don't really understand what's going on, hold on to simplistic narratives and "windows" they get from the media and social media. For me as an (ex-) Israeli your equating the response of Israel to the Hamas puts you squarely in the anti-Israeli camp. You blank statement "massacre of civilians under the orders of Likud (and other far right parties)" feels like a blood libel. This is just my emotional response to how you phrase things. So that doesn't seem to be an overlap of pro-israeli and pro-palestinian.
woodruffw 3y ago
I have nothing to add here, other than to thank you for expressing this so cogently. It’s not always “right” to measure just action in terms of lives saved or lost, but it’s hard for me (and so many other American Jews) to see anything right or just about 10 dead Palestinians for every dead Israeli.
- dotancohen 3y ago
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  - mda 3y ago
    "Israel is going great lengths to protect civilians." No they don't. They never did.
    - dotancohen 3y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roof_knocking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roof_knocking
  - woodruffw 3y ago
    > So you are suggesting an eye for an eye, we should kill a Palestinian for every one of our dead? Honestly, I find that thought disgusting. I don’t know how you can possibly arrive at this interpretation from what I wrote.
  - jakelazaroff 3y ago
    > So you are suggesting an eye for an eye, we should kill a Palestinian for every one of our dead? Honestly, I find that thought disgusting. Just to be clear: you find that more disgusting than killing over ten Palestinians for every dead Israeli?
    - dotancohen 3y ago
      No, I find the idea of deliberately killing even a single Palestinian disgusting. Thank you for asking.
meowface 3y ago
I don't support how civilians are being treated in Palestine whatsoever, but: >while condemning the massacre of civilians under the orders of Likud (and other far right parties) When has Likud ordered massacres of civilians? Or when has any modern Israeli party? I also don't believe Likud is considered far-right in Israel; just "right". There are parties far to the right of them. Not that that's necessarily a good thing, but it's a relative designation.
- jakelazaroff 3y ago
  Here is a long list of Israeli politicians and military officers who have declared their intent to massacre civilians: - Israeli Prime Minister (!!) Benjamin Netanyahu: "You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. And we do remember." [1] - IDF spokesman Daniel Hagari: "we're focused on what causes maximum damage" [2] - Israeli defense Minister Yoav Gallant: "I have ordered a complete siege on Gaza: no electricity, no food, no fuel, no water. Everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we will act accordingly." [3] - Israeli Minister of National Security Itamar Ben-Gvir: “As long as Hamas does not release the hostages in its hands - the only thing that needs to enter Gaza are hundreds of tons of explosives from the air force, not an ounce of humanitarian aid” [4] - IDF Reservist Major General Giora Eiland: “The State of Israel has no choice but to turn Gaza into a place that is temporarily or permanently impossible to live in" and "Creating a severe humanitarian crisis in Gaza is a necessary means to achieve the goal." [5] - Israeli President Isaac Herzog: "It is not true this rhetoric about civilians not being aware, not involved. It’s absolutely not true." and "Of course there are many, many innocent Palestinians who don’t agree to this — but unfortunately in their homes, there are missiles shooting at us, at my children." [6] - IDF Reservist Ezra Yachin: "Be triumphant and finish them off and don’t leave anyone behind. Erase the memory of them. Erase them, their families, mothers and children. These animals can no longer live." and "Every Jew with a weapon should go out and kill them. If you have an Arab neighbour, don’t wait, go to his home and shoot him." [7] - IDF Reservist Major General Giora Eiland: "The international community is warning us against a severe humanitarian disaster and severe epidemics. We must not shy away from this. After all, severe epidemics in the south of Gaza will bring victory closer" and "there’s no reason why the Hamas generals in southern Gaza wouldn’t surrender when they have no fuel, no water, and when plagues will reach them and the danger to the lives of their family members will increase" [8] - Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant: "Hezbollah is close to making a grave mistake. The ones who will pay the price are first of all the citizens of Lebanon. What we do in Gaza we know how to do in Beirut" [9] - Israeli Minister for Agriculture and former head of Shin Bet Avi Dichter: "We are now actually rolling out the Gaza Nakba" [10] - Likud Knesset member Galit Distel-Atbaryan: "Invest this energy in one thing; Erasing all of Gaza from the face of the earth." and "A vengeful and cruel IDF is needed here. Anything less is immoral." [11] - Israeli Energy Minister Israel Katz: "Humanitarian aid to Gaza? No electrical switch will be turned on, no water pump will be opened and no fuel truck will enter until the Israeli abductees are returned home" [12] - IDF Lt. Col. Richard Hecht, in response to Wolf Blitzer asking if the IDF knew there were civilians in Jabalya refugee camp before they bombed it: "This is the tragedy of war, Wolf — as you know, we've been saying for days, move south." [13] [1] https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2023/11/benjamin-netanyahu-amalek-israel-palestine-gaza-saul-samuel-old-testament/ https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2023/11/benjamin-netany... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/10/right-now-it-is-one-day-at-a-time-life-on-israels-frontline-with-gaza https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/10/right-now-it-i... [3] https://twitter.com/marwasf/status/1711392643908071789 https://twitter.com/marwasf/status/1711392643908071789 [4] https://x.com/davidrkadler/status/1714362716565979534 https://x.com/davidrkadler/status/1714362716565979534 [5] https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/15/opinion/israel-united-states-gaza.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/15/opinion/israel-united-sta... [6] https://www.huffpost.com/entry/israel-gaza-isaac-herzog_n_65295ee8e4b03ea0c004e2a8 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/israel-gaza-isaac-herzog_n_65... [7] https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-palestine-war-veteran-ezra-yachin-soldiers-erase-children https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-palestine-war-vete... [8] https://twitter.com/hahauenstein/status/1726326606782984506 https://twitter.com/hahauenstein/status/1726326606782984506 [9] https://twitter.com/alihashem_tv/status/1723369208191287738 https://twitter.com/alihashem_tv/status/1723369208191287738 [10] https://twitter.com/hahauenstein/status/1723441134221869453 https://twitter.com/hahauenstein/status/1723441134221869453 [11] https://twitter.com/GalitDistel/status/1719689095230730656 https://twitter.com/GalitDistel/status/1719689095230730656 [12] https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/energy-minister-no-electricity-or-water-to-gaza-until-abductees-returned-home/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/energy-minister... [13] https://twitter.com/justinbaragona/status/1719412278351507487 https://twitter.com/justinbaragona/status/171941227835150748...
HybridCurve 3y ago
I've noticed quite a bit of propaganda which is intentionally conflating these two pairs. That is, those who are advocating for Gazans are referred to as Hamas supporters and those advocating on behalf of Israeli citizens are accused of supporting genocide, etc. This is done to polarize both groups, encourage strongly negative emotional reactions, and prevent anyone from taking a more reasonable perspective to address issues on both sides of this complex situation.
- YZF 3y ago
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  - deleted 3y ago
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  - rzl1235 3y ago
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- ac130kz 3y ago
  Try to argue and "make a peaceful treaty" with a ruling party of terrorists (greatly supported by the population btw), who want to completely obliterate Israel, launch rockets from their own houses near their own children, which has been factually proven countless amount of times. Same goes to Russia, DPRK, Iran, these are narrow minded non-negotiable despotic countries, they want only their way, regardless of casualties (including their own), international laws, etc.
  - Georgelemental 3y ago
    Hamas supporters would say the same thing about Israel, that they could never "make a peaceful treaty" with the state that expelled their grandmother from her home at gunpoint, that launched the bomb that killed their sister, that supported the illegal settlers that shot their cousins in the West Bank… The 1% most extreme on both sides want to drag you down to their level, don't let them.
deleted 3y ago
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The_Colonel 3y ago
I think that forcing this dichotomy is part of the deliberate pro-Israel media strategy - if you despise Hamas inhumane acts, then of course you need to be pro-Israel. They want you to focus on Hamas to steer away your attention from what Israel has been doing. (this is also one of the reasons why Hamas has historically been an asset for the Israeli right)
- mhalberstram 3y ago
  You're making a good point about the symbiotic relationship with the Israeli right. This reminds me of a recent interesting discussion on the Skeptics StackExchange: https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/56315/did-netanyahu-express-support-of-hamas-in-2019 https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/56315/did-netan...
  - rjzzleep 3y ago
    The crazy thing is that the pro war machine talking heads keeps trying to make this about Iran, when it's really Qatar and Turkey financing Hamas, in part using illegal Oil sales from Syria. Nikki Haley was talking about "finishing them". It's also worth remembering that Hamas actively fought AGAINST Syria and it's allies(Iran) with the other Islamist rebels The US has huge military presences in both countries, and if they really wanted to shut down funding to those institutions they could do it tomorrow. We know that Netanyahu deliberated supported these groups to shut down opposition in Gaza by his own accord and that he has even recently asked to send more funding[1]. The talking heads also want you to believe that this is some sort of protection money out of goodwill for the poor civilians in Gaza. I listened to some Palestinians on twitter spaces the other day and they told explained to people how the political landscape is actually a lot more complex than we are led to believe from media. One person breaking down Hamas really well has been Brian Berletic from the new atlas[2]. Some people here might not like him, because he very much in favour of China, but I still urge everyone to take a look at his Palestine analysis. [1] https://www.timesofisrael.com/mossad-chief-top-general-visited-qatar-begged-it-to-pay-hamas-liberman-says/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/mossad-chief-top-general-visit... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPJaNoxtE20 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPJaNoxtE20
m463 3y ago
It seems to me a more fundamental assumption is: there are two groups. I believe breaking things up into "us" vs "them" is the root of much evil in the world. Would it be more meaningful to say "dads killing dads" or "this specific person killing that specific person" ?
krelian 3y ago
>I think the fundamental assumption of the analysis that there are two mutually exclusive groups, 'pro-Israel' and 'pro-Palestine' is flawed. It is possible to simultaneously support the interests of Palestinian and Israeli civilians That would be a nuanced view. The reality is that most people and especially most people who post their views online are not capable of seeing things that way.
- thomastjeffery 3y ago
  You are literally responding to one. Would you rather everyone reading here took that comment's advice or yours?
Natsu 3y ago
[flagged]
zeruch 3y ago
"I think the fundamental assumption of the analysis that there are two mutually exclusive groups, 'pro-Israel' and 'pro-Palestine' is flawed." This is a fairly nail-on-head distillation, and that it exists exacerbates any attempts at substantive discourse that follows.
yyyk 3y ago
"massacre of civilians under the orders of Likud" "scale of the atrocities" * There really isn't any better deathrates when the other side is explicitly based on indifference to its own civillian casualties. Mosul had 40K civillian deaths in a 2.5x smaller city (by population)[0]. I fail to see why Israel can't use the same legal tactics** the US used to defend itself versus jihadists, except the Israeli death rate is lower and the US had far less justification. * Focusing on the Likud is a mistake. Every Israeli political party would have counterattacked at Gaza, with about the same (legal) tactics, but probably much more aggressively. Leaving next door to a genocidal terrorist regime was unacceptable, actually moreso to the Israeli Left. After all, what's the point of two states if the other side can do _anything_ and get support afterwards? And I mean anything - the attack was into 1967 lines, deathrates much higher than in Gaza. The irony is that many people that say they support 2ss are trying to enshrine impunity here, basically destroying any hope that either side will support 2ss. That's why Bibi was the pretend 'cautious' here, because of very cynical calculation - Hamas staying weakened but alive lets Bibi kill 2ss - WB Palestinians flock to 'victorious' Hamas, while Israeli Left approach is discredited - but his hand was forced. * Focusing on Hamas is also somewhat of a mistake, given polls show widespread crosscutting Palestinian support to Hamas action[1]. [0] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/mosul-massacre-battle-isis-iraq-city-civilian-casualties-killed-deaths-fighting-forces-islamic-state-a7848781.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/mosul-m... [1] https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20Opinion%20Poll%20-%20Gaza%20War%202023%20-%20Tables%20of%20Results.pdf https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20... ** When we ignore scaremongering about 'starvation/disease at a massive scale' when it's not happening, the only thing the list has are actions into hospitals which even the US believes are used by Hamas.
etothepii 3y ago
Why does the scale matter? In the legal codes with which I am familiar mens rea matters. Murder is not just worse than manslaughter it is on a different level. Western criminal codes generally allow for no punishment, perhaps even no guilt, for a manslaughter. If Israel could remove Hamas without injuring any non-combatants I think they would. It makes a difference. Almost by definition suggesting that scale is a factor is implying that collective punishment is acceptable.
- jltsiren 3y ago
  Scale is the most important factor when talking about the harm done. A dead person is dead, regardless of if it was murder or manslaughter. Criminal punishments are more about the social consequences than about the crime itself. If someone gets X years in prison for crime A and another person gets 2X years for crime B, it doesn't mean that crime B was twice as bad. It only means that after taking a large number of factors into account, it made sense to give twice as long sentence for crime B.
  - creato 3y ago
    Intent matters, and disregarding it disables your ability to determine right from wrong. If someone attacks you and you kill them by acting in self defense, you absolutely would hope that the people judging you for your actions would consider your intent. You would probably feel you don't deserve to spend a moment in handcuffs, let alone night in jail, let alone go through a criminal trial, let alone be sentenced, even if it is negligible in comparison to a murderer.
    - jltsiren 3y ago
      Right and wrong are kind of irrelevant in international politics. When there are no enforceable laws, no shared values, and no expectations of justice, justifications don't really matter. Consequences and reciprocity become more important. If you do something because you think it's justified, others will do similar things if they think their actions are justified. It doesn't matter what the others think about the justifications of your actions or what you think about the justifications of their actions.
orik 3y ago
I’m not sure how all this can be said with a straight face; that you are “pro-israel” you just think the borders should be set back over 50 years and that a democratically elected government’s actions is worse than those of a terrorist organization. Not once did you mention what atrocities were committed on Hamas’s side and instead you spent all your effort justifying Hamas by arguing how you think Lukid is worse. What actions in your opinion would be an appropriate response for people (& government) of Israel to respond to the targeted rape, murder, beheadings of the elderly, men, women, and children, which was filmed by Hamas and sometimes live-streamed on the social media accounts of their victims to show off what they have achieved? I’m not sure you can claim to be in the middle or support ‘both sides / both peoples’ when you only have bad things to say about one of them.
- lazyasciiart 3y ago
  They did in fact mention what Hamas did - when they said civilian deaths caused by Likud are an order of magnitude higher. Perhaps they think civilian deaths are intrinsically bad, and don’t feel the need to calculate that one beheading is worth 5 children dead for lack of medical care, or whatever the official rate is? Also, a reminder that Putin and Hamas were also democratically elected, and I don’t see why that has any relevance to whether their actions should be condemned or not.
  - orik 3y ago
    There have not been elections held in Gaza in 18 years and Putin’s elections are not considered free and fair - see the arrest of Navalny. Democratic processes are good because it holds those in power accountable for their actions and should not just be hand waved away as if it doesn’t matter. And no, what Hamas has done was not mentioned, all that was said was ‘the actions of Hamas’. What actions - did they hold a bake sale? It is unclear and minimized.
    - lazyasciiart 3y ago
      If you don’t know what Hamas did you are totally out of your depth. Israel argues that Hamas are the elected leaders of Gaza and that’s why residents there are at fault. I completely agree that Hamas do not represent Palestinians and think Israel should also admit this.
theptip 3y ago
The problem is, as we all discuss frequently around here, when it comes to this sort of issue social media is optimized to suppress nuance, boost controversial takes, and generate engagement through anger. So there is a very real sense in which there _are_ two mutually exclusive groups. There is also a third group wishing for nuance and understanding and thoughtful discourse of the historical context, but that group gets coded as the “other” by both of the black-and-white groups.
edanm 3y ago
I think it's incorrect to frame every action in Israel as the actions of Likud. That's not at all how the Israeli government works. It's a coalition government in which, yes, Likud is the biggest party, but made up of many other parties as well, and for the purposes of this war includes a party that was previously an opposition party to this government. For better or worse, the Likud-led coalition is the current government of Israel, and Hamas is the current government of Palestine.
tomohawk 3y ago
So a bunch of terrorists murder 1400+ Jews and commit unspeakable acts against them, and then run and hide in pre-prepared positions behind the civilians that they have been forcibly governing and abusing since 2006, and they are on record as saying that they prepared all of this on purpose, and somehow the civilian casualties are the fault of Israel? Give me a break. Britain killed a lot more German civilians than Germany killed British civilians in WWII. Does that make the British the bad guys?
oytis 3y ago
I think this position is a small minority in the public opinion, and is virtually non-existent in Arab countries. It doesn't help that moderate supporters of two state solution make little effort to distance themselves from the "from the River to the Sea" Israel hating crowd.
nailer 3y ago
> while condemning the massacre of civilians under the orders of Likud This is a surprising statement as I haven’t heard of such an event happening and I’ve followed these events fairly closely. When was the civilian massacre? Do you have a source? Or did you make it up? > peaceful Israel within the 1967 boundaries Israel was previously peaceful within the 1967 boundaries, in 1967. Arab states tried to destroy it in 1967 and again in 1973, resulting in Israel gaining land, something arab states now blame on Israel.

by A1kmm 3y ago

YZF 3y ago

I don't think any other government in Israel would respond materially differently to Oct 7th. The only response Israel has to this scale of event is to re-occupy Gaza and the only way it can be accomplished without larger casualties on both sides is more or less what is transpiring today. I'm sure there are details that would be different but I don't think the script would be materially different if Likud was not in power. The military plan for re-taking Gaza is from the IDF, not the government. Likud-controlled IDF isn't really a thing, the government gives a target (removing Hamas) and the IDF executes. Any other government would give the same target. What I would and do blame the current government for is that Oct 7th even happened, the scale, and the immediate response. EDIT: I also blame the current government for trying to eliminate any possibility of a two state solution and effectively supporting the Hamas rule in Gaza as means of accomplishing that. I can probably blame them for lots more. That said the actual Oct 7th attack is all on Hamas and the response is pretty much the only response you'd have seen from any Israeli government (or anyone else in that position for that matter). We're in a place today that is a different place and we can talk all we want about what other possible places we could be. I'll agree with you on the west bank policy being a Likud/right-wing policy in general. We can also talk about why the Israeli public is more right wing leaning and the left has all but disappeared. I think those two groups are really more mutually exclusive than what you're trying to portray. At least to most Israelis they are. Because for most Israelis, when you say "peaceful within 1967 borders", it reads as "kill all the Jews in Israel". Many (most?) Palestinians will also not accept this statement because they consider Israel in the 1967 border to be the Palestinian state. If there was an overlap we wouldn't really be where we are, we'd have peace. I have not met many people who are in this overlap, i.e. they're both "pro-Israel" and "pro-Palestine" in a meaningful way. Most people do not hold nuanced views at all, don't know that much about the conflict, don't really understand what's going on, hold on to simplistic narratives and "windows" they get from the media and social media. For me as an (ex-) Israeli your equating the response of Israel to the Hamas puts you squarely in the anti-Israeli camp. You blank statement "massacre of civilians under the orders of Likud (and other far right parties)" feels like a blood libel. This is just my emotional response to how you phrase things. So that doesn't seem to be an overlap of pro-israeli and pro-palestinian.

woodruffw 3y ago

I have nothing to add here, other than to thank you for expressing this so cogently. It’s not always “right” to measure just action in terms of lives saved or lost, but it’s hard for me (and so many other American Jews) to see anything right or just about 10 dead Palestinians for every dead Israeli.

dotancohen 3y ago
[flagged]
- mda 3y ago
  "Israel is going great lengths to protect civilians." No they don't. They never did.
  - dotancohen 3y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roof_knocking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roof_knocking
- woodruffw 3y ago
  > So you are suggesting an eye for an eye, we should kill a Palestinian for every one of our dead? Honestly, I find that thought disgusting. I don’t know how you can possibly arrive at this interpretation from what I wrote.
- jakelazaroff 3y ago
  > So you are suggesting an eye for an eye, we should kill a Palestinian for every one of our dead? Honestly, I find that thought disgusting. Just to be clear: you find that more disgusting than killing over ten Palestinians for every dead Israeli?
  - dotancohen 3y ago
    No, I find the idea of deliberately killing even a single Palestinian disgusting. Thank you for asking.

meowface 3y ago

I don't support how civilians are being treated in Palestine whatsoever, but: >while condemning the massacre of civilians under the orders of Likud (and other far right parties) When has Likud ordered massacres of civilians? Or when has any modern Israeli party? I also don't believe Likud is considered far-right in Israel; just "right". There are parties far to the right of them. Not that that's necessarily a good thing, but it's a relative designation.

jakelazaroff 3y ago
Here is a long list of Israeli politicians and military officers who have declared their intent to massacre civilians: - Israeli Prime Minister (!!) Benjamin Netanyahu: "You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible. And we do remember." [1] - IDF spokesman Daniel Hagari: "we're focused on what causes maximum damage" [2] - Israeli defense Minister Yoav Gallant: "I have ordered a complete siege on Gaza: no electricity, no food, no fuel, no water. Everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we will act accordingly." [3] - Israeli Minister of National Security Itamar Ben-Gvir: “As long as Hamas does not release the hostages in its hands - the only thing that needs to enter Gaza are hundreds of tons of explosives from the air force, not an ounce of humanitarian aid” [4] - IDF Reservist Major General Giora Eiland: “The State of Israel has no choice but to turn Gaza into a place that is temporarily or permanently impossible to live in" and "Creating a severe humanitarian crisis in Gaza is a necessary means to achieve the goal." [5] - Israeli President Isaac Herzog: "It is not true this rhetoric about civilians not being aware, not involved. It’s absolutely not true." and "Of course there are many, many innocent Palestinians who don’t agree to this — but unfortunately in their homes, there are missiles shooting at us, at my children." [6] - IDF Reservist Ezra Yachin: "Be triumphant and finish them off and don’t leave anyone behind. Erase the memory of them. Erase them, their families, mothers and children. These animals can no longer live." and "Every Jew with a weapon should go out and kill them. If you have an Arab neighbour, don’t wait, go to his home and shoot him." [7] - IDF Reservist Major General Giora Eiland: "The international community is warning us against a severe humanitarian disaster and severe epidemics. We must not shy away from this. After all, severe epidemics in the south of Gaza will bring victory closer" and "there’s no reason why the Hamas generals in southern Gaza wouldn’t surrender when they have no fuel, no water, and when plagues will reach them and the danger to the lives of their family members will increase" [8] - Israeli Defense Minister Yoav Gallant: "Hezbollah is close to making a grave mistake. The ones who will pay the price are first of all the citizens of Lebanon. What we do in Gaza we know how to do in Beirut" [9] - Israeli Minister for Agriculture and former head of Shin Bet Avi Dichter: "We are now actually rolling out the Gaza Nakba" [10] - Likud Knesset member Galit Distel-Atbaryan: "Invest this energy in one thing; Erasing all of Gaza from the face of the earth." and "A vengeful and cruel IDF is needed here. Anything less is immoral." [11] - Israeli Energy Minister Israel Katz: "Humanitarian aid to Gaza? No electrical switch will be turned on, no water pump will be opened and no fuel truck will enter until the Israeli abductees are returned home" [12] - IDF Lt. Col. Richard Hecht, in response to Wolf Blitzer asking if the IDF knew there were civilians in Jabalya refugee camp before they bombed it: "This is the tragedy of war, Wolf — as you know, we've been saying for days, move south." [13] [1] https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2023/11/benjamin-netanyahu-amalek-israel-palestine-gaza-saul-samuel-old-testament/ https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2023/11/benjamin-netany... [2] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/10/right-now-it-is-one-day-at-a-time-life-on-israels-frontline-with-gaza https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/10/right-now-it-i... [3] https://twitter.com/marwasf/status/1711392643908071789 https://twitter.com/marwasf/status/1711392643908071789 [4] https://x.com/davidrkadler/status/1714362716565979534 https://x.com/davidrkadler/status/1714362716565979534 [5] https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/15/opinion/israel-united-states-gaza.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/15/opinion/israel-united-sta... [6] https://www.huffpost.com/entry/israel-gaza-isaac-herzog_n_65295ee8e4b03ea0c004e2a8 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/israel-gaza-isaac-herzog_n_65... [7] https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-palestine-war-veteran-ezra-yachin-soldiers-erase-children https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/israel-palestine-war-vete... [8] https://twitter.com/hahauenstein/status/1726326606782984506 https://twitter.com/hahauenstein/status/1726326606782984506 [9] https://twitter.com/alihashem_tv/status/1723369208191287738 https://twitter.com/alihashem_tv/status/1723369208191287738 [10] https://twitter.com/hahauenstein/status/1723441134221869453 https://twitter.com/hahauenstein/status/1723441134221869453 [11] https://twitter.com/GalitDistel/status/1719689095230730656 https://twitter.com/GalitDistel/status/1719689095230730656 [12] https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/energy-minister-no-electricity-or-water-to-gaza-until-abductees-returned-home/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/energy-minister... [13] https://twitter.com/justinbaragona/status/1719412278351507487 https://twitter.com/justinbaragona/status/171941227835150748...

HybridCurve 3y ago

I've noticed quite a bit of propaganda which is intentionally conflating these two pairs. That is, those who are advocating for Gazans are referred to as Hamas supporters and those advocating on behalf of Israeli citizens are accused of supporting genocide, etc. This is done to polarize both groups, encourage strongly negative emotional reactions, and prevent anyone from taking a more reasonable perspective to address issues on both sides of this complex situation.

YZF 3y ago
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- deleted 3y ago
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- rzl1235 3y ago
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ac130kz 3y ago
Try to argue and "make a peaceful treaty" with a ruling party of terrorists (greatly supported by the population btw), who want to completely obliterate Israel, launch rockets from their own houses near their own children, which has been factually proven countless amount of times. Same goes to Russia, DPRK, Iran, these are narrow minded non-negotiable despotic countries, they want only their way, regardless of casualties (including their own), international laws, etc.
- Georgelemental 3y ago
  Hamas supporters would say the same thing about Israel, that they could never "make a peaceful treaty" with the state that expelled their grandmother from her home at gunpoint, that launched the bomb that killed their sister, that supported the illegal settlers that shot their cousins in the West Bank… The 1% most extreme on both sides want to drag you down to their level, don't let them.

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The_Colonel 3y ago

I think that forcing this dichotomy is part of the deliberate pro-Israel media strategy - if you despise Hamas inhumane acts, then of course you need to be pro-Israel. They want you to focus on Hamas to steer away your attention from what Israel has been doing. (this is also one of the reasons why Hamas has historically been an asset for the Israeli right)

mhalberstram 3y ago
You're making a good point about the symbiotic relationship with the Israeli right. This reminds me of a recent interesting discussion on the Skeptics StackExchange: https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/56315/did-netanyahu-express-support-of-hamas-in-2019 https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/56315/did-netan...
- rjzzleep 3y ago
  The crazy thing is that the pro war machine talking heads keeps trying to make this about Iran, when it's really Qatar and Turkey financing Hamas, in part using illegal Oil sales from Syria. Nikki Haley was talking about "finishing them". It's also worth remembering that Hamas actively fought AGAINST Syria and it's allies(Iran) with the other Islamist rebels The US has huge military presences in both countries, and if they really wanted to shut down funding to those institutions they could do it tomorrow. We know that Netanyahu deliberated supported these groups to shut down opposition in Gaza by his own accord and that he has even recently asked to send more funding[1]. The talking heads also want you to believe that this is some sort of protection money out of goodwill for the poor civilians in Gaza. I listened to some Palestinians on twitter spaces the other day and they told explained to people how the political landscape is actually a lot more complex than we are led to believe from media. One person breaking down Hamas really well has been Brian Berletic from the new atlas[2]. Some people here might not like him, because he very much in favour of China, but I still urge everyone to take a look at his Palestine analysis. [1] https://www.timesofisrael.com/mossad-chief-top-general-visited-qatar-begged-it-to-pay-hamas-liberman-says/ https://www.timesofisrael.com/mossad-chief-top-general-visit... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPJaNoxtE20 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPJaNoxtE20

m463 3y ago

It seems to me a more fundamental assumption is: there are two groups. I believe breaking things up into "us" vs "them" is the root of much evil in the world. Would it be more meaningful to say "dads killing dads" or "this specific person killing that specific person" ?

krelian 3y ago

>I think the fundamental assumption of the analysis that there are two mutually exclusive groups, 'pro-Israel' and 'pro-Palestine' is flawed. It is possible to simultaneously support the interests of Palestinian and Israeli civilians That would be a nuanced view. The reality is that most people and especially most people who post their views online are not capable of seeing things that way.

thomastjeffery 3y ago
You are literally responding to one. Would you rather everyone reading here took that comment's advice or yours?

Natsu 3y ago

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zeruch 3y ago

"I think the fundamental assumption of the analysis that there are two mutually exclusive groups, 'pro-Israel' and 'pro-Palestine' is flawed." This is a fairly nail-on-head distillation, and that it exists exacerbates any attempts at substantive discourse that follows.

yyyk 3y ago

"massacre of civilians under the orders of Likud" "scale of the atrocities" * There really isn't any better deathrates when the other side is explicitly based on indifference to its own civillian casualties. Mosul had 40K civillian deaths in a 2.5x smaller city (by population)[0]. I fail to see why Israel can't use the same legal tactics** the US used to defend itself versus jihadists, except the Israeli death rate is lower and the US had far less justification. * Focusing on the Likud is a mistake. Every Israeli political party would have counterattacked at Gaza, with about the same (legal) tactics, but probably much more aggressively. Leaving next door to a genocidal terrorist regime was unacceptable, actually moreso to the Israeli Left. After all, what's the point of two states if the other side can do _anything_ and get support afterwards? And I mean anything - the attack was into 1967 lines, deathrates much higher than in Gaza. The irony is that many people that say they support 2ss are trying to enshrine impunity here, basically destroying any hope that either side will support 2ss. That's why Bibi was the pretend 'cautious' here, because of very cynical calculation - Hamas staying weakened but alive lets Bibi kill 2ss - WB Palestinians flock to 'victorious' Hamas, while Israeli Left approach is discredited - but his hand was forced. * Focusing on Hamas is also somewhat of a mistake, given polls show widespread crosscutting Palestinian support to Hamas action[1]. [0] https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/mosul-massacre-battle-isis-iraq-city-civilian-casualties-killed-deaths-fighting-forces-islamic-state-a7848781.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/mosul-m... [1] https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20Opinion%20Poll%20-%20Gaza%20War%202023%20-%20Tables%20of%20Results.pdf https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20... ** When we ignore scaremongering about 'starvation/disease at a massive scale' when it's not happening, the only thing the list has are actions into hospitals which even the US believes are used by Hamas.

etothepii 3y ago

Why does the scale matter? In the legal codes with which I am familiar mens rea matters. Murder is not just worse than manslaughter it is on a different level. Western criminal codes generally allow for no punishment, perhaps even no guilt, for a manslaughter. If Israel could remove Hamas without injuring any non-combatants I think they would. It makes a difference. Almost by definition suggesting that scale is a factor is implying that collective punishment is acceptable.

jltsiren 3y ago
Scale is the most important factor when talking about the harm done. A dead person is dead, regardless of if it was murder or manslaughter. Criminal punishments are more about the social consequences than about the crime itself. If someone gets X years in prison for crime A and another person gets 2X years for crime B, it doesn't mean that crime B was twice as bad. It only means that after taking a large number of factors into account, it made sense to give twice as long sentence for crime B.
- creato 3y ago
  Intent matters, and disregarding it disables your ability to determine right from wrong. If someone attacks you and you kill them by acting in self defense, you absolutely would hope that the people judging you for your actions would consider your intent. You would probably feel you don't deserve to spend a moment in handcuffs, let alone night in jail, let alone go through a criminal trial, let alone be sentenced, even if it is negligible in comparison to a murderer.
  - jltsiren 3y ago
    Right and wrong are kind of irrelevant in international politics. When there are no enforceable laws, no shared values, and no expectations of justice, justifications don't really matter. Consequences and reciprocity become more important. If you do something because you think it's justified, others will do similar things if they think their actions are justified. It doesn't matter what the others think about the justifications of your actions or what you think about the justifications of their actions.

orik 3y ago

I’m not sure how all this can be said with a straight face; that you are “pro-israel” you just think the borders should be set back over 50 years and that a democratically elected government’s actions is worse than those of a terrorist organization. Not once did you mention what atrocities were committed on Hamas’s side and instead you spent all your effort justifying Hamas by arguing how you think Lukid is worse. What actions in your opinion would be an appropriate response for people (& government) of Israel to respond to the targeted rape, murder, beheadings of the elderly, men, women, and children, which was filmed by Hamas and sometimes live-streamed on the social media accounts of their victims to show off what they have achieved? I’m not sure you can claim to be in the middle or support ‘both sides / both peoples’ when you only have bad things to say about one of them.

lazyasciiart 3y ago
They did in fact mention what Hamas did - when they said civilian deaths caused by Likud are an order of magnitude higher. Perhaps they think civilian deaths are intrinsically bad, and don’t feel the need to calculate that one beheading is worth 5 children dead for lack of medical care, or whatever the official rate is? Also, a reminder that Putin and Hamas were also democratically elected, and I don’t see why that has any relevance to whether their actions should be condemned or not.
- orik 3y ago
  There have not been elections held in Gaza in 18 years and Putin’s elections are not considered free and fair - see the arrest of Navalny. Democratic processes are good because it holds those in power accountable for their actions and should not just be hand waved away as if it doesn’t matter. And no, what Hamas has done was not mentioned, all that was said was ‘the actions of Hamas’. What actions - did they hold a bake sale? It is unclear and minimized.
  - lazyasciiart 3y ago
    If you don’t know what Hamas did you are totally out of your depth. Israel argues that Hamas are the elected leaders of Gaza and that’s why residents there are at fault. I completely agree that Hamas do not represent Palestinians and think Israel should also admit this.

theptip 3y ago

The problem is, as we all discuss frequently around here, when it comes to this sort of issue social media is optimized to suppress nuance, boost controversial takes, and generate engagement through anger. So there is a very real sense in which there _are_ two mutually exclusive groups. There is also a third group wishing for nuance and understanding and thoughtful discourse of the historical context, but that group gets coded as the “other” by both of the black-and-white groups.

edanm 3y ago

I think it's incorrect to frame every action in Israel as the actions of Likud. That's not at all how the Israeli government works. It's a coalition government in which, yes, Likud is the biggest party, but made up of many other parties as well, and for the purposes of this war includes a party that was previously an opposition party to this government. For better or worse, the Likud-led coalition is the current government of Israel, and Hamas is the current government of Palestine.

tomohawk 3y ago

So a bunch of terrorists murder 1400+ Jews and commit unspeakable acts against them, and then run and hide in pre-prepared positions behind the civilians that they have been forcibly governing and abusing since 2006, and they are on record as saying that they prepared all of this on purpose, and somehow the civilian casualties are the fault of Israel? Give me a break. Britain killed a lot more German civilians than Germany killed British civilians in WWII. Does that make the British the bad guys?

oytis 3y ago

I think this position is a small minority in the public opinion, and is virtually non-existent in Arab countries. It doesn't help that moderate supporters of two state solution make little effort to distance themselves from the "from the River to the Sea" Israel hating crowd.

nailer 3y ago

> while condemning the massacre of civilians under the orders of Likud This is a surprising statement as I haven’t heard of such an event happening and I’ve followed these events fairly closely. When was the civilian massacre? Do you have a source? Or did you make it up? > peaceful Israel within the 1967 boundaries Israel was previously peaceful within the 1967 boundaries, in 1967. Arab states tried to destroy it in 1967 and again in 1973, resulting in Israel gaining land, something arab states now blame on Israel.