5 ms·

Is it really worth fighting over a piece of land for generations? It's just dirt, there's nothing special about it. Almost all borders are the results of war a

Is it really worth fighting over a piece of land for generations? It's just dirt, there's nothing special about it. Almost all borders are the results of war and conquest throughout history, it's better to accept that and move on.

squidbeak 3y ago
It's their home and they have nowhere else to go. Wouldn't you want to preserve your community, culture and homeland?
- mupuff1234 3y ago
  They have a home in Gaza and the west bank - most of Palestinians today have never been inside the 67' borders so how exactly is it their home? I'm pro a 2 state solution based on the 67' borders, fighting over some "right of return" to a place you've never been for generations just seems like a waste of life. And if you even take the very long term view, a 2 state solution could eventually lead to open borders, and an implicit "right of return" (after decades of peace and building trust).
  - adhamsalama 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - mupuff1234 3y ago
      It's their home because they live there now. (on purpose i try to refrain for going all historical because we live in the present, not the past)
    - spookie 3y ago
      If Europeans would continue having that train of thought they would still be fighting. Alas, someone had those same thoughts back in February 2022. And now it's a minefield. Dwelling on the past is a recipe for disaster, having grandiose thoughts of conquest is very much the same (hint: Netanyahu's colonization efforts, I thought I should be fair and account for that too).
    - bitcurious 3y ago
      Oh boy. First, most Israeli Jews are of middle eastern origins, expelled from their homes in the surrounding Arab states. Second, like someone else noted, possession is 9/10th of the law, i.e., the world belongs to the living. Third, the Jewish people are the indigenous people of Israel - there is evidence of Hebrew being the language of the region 4500 years ago.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - lazyasciiart 3y ago
    There are millions of people in Africa who have been born and grown up in refugee camps, and you are arguing that they should all simply give up and consider themselves settled there forever because they’ve never been to the places their parents or grandparents fled? For one thing, they might believe that an entire farm would be better to live in than a single flattened apartment? And then you argue for the ‘67 borders: that’s 50 years ago, what makes those the borders we should roll back to when almost no Palestinians of today were alive before then?
    - mupuff1234 3y ago
      > and you are arguing that they should all simply give up and consider themselves settled there forever I can't comment on all the situations because I have very little familiarity with refugees in africa, but assuming they don't have a state to return to and they can form a new state where they are? Then yes, 100% yes. The 67' borders are internationally recognized, so I'm saying accept that and move on. My grandparents lived in eastern Europe before the Holocaust, I'm not crying to return there because I have a new home. Throughout history humans have been nomadic and moved from place to place. If you take any person and go up along their ancestry line at some point you'd probably encounter some ancestor that was displaced (by another tribe, nation, lord, just some bastard, etc), and yet we don't dwell on that.
      - lazyasciiart 3y ago
        The ‘67 borders may be internationally recognized but they are not currently in existence, which is why I am confused by your conflating the ideas of just accepting where you are now and returning to the borders that existed 50 years ago.
        mupuff1234 3y ago
        Accepting where we are now as in accepting the current international borders as more or less the blueprint.
- HDThoreaun 3y ago
  Well no, the vast majority of palestinians have never lived in Israel, it is not there home.
xkekjrktllss 3y ago
Where do you suggest they go?
- mupuff1234 3y ago
  Gaza and the west bank, where they currently live. And israel should remove the settlements of course.
abusada 3y ago
Sure, move on to where? do what? I'm curious, how much do you know about the situation here?
- mupuff1234 3y ago
  Stay put. Palestinians should get a state in Gaza and the west bank. I'd like to think I have a somewhat decent understanding of the situation, but flawed and with its own biases of course.
sam1994 3y ago
I don't think you even understand the gravity of the situation. Not only did Palestinians were forcibly evicted in 1948 (The Nakba), they're being continuously occupied by an apartheid, racist and terrorist regime. This is not a matter of conquest my friend. Because look. And bear with me. This might be long. But it's worth it. The Muslims conquered the lands of Jerusalem in 638 AD where the first Islamic Caliphate, Umar Ibn Khattab, besieged the city and the Christians surrendered. He took over without bloodshed. When Umar Ibn Khattab asked them, where are the Jews? He was surprised to hear they were all slaughtered or driven away by the Byzantine Christians sometime around 138-150 AD. He said, bring 20 Jewish families and establish them here. No lands were stolen, nothing was taken, no forced conversions were made. Jews Christians and Muslims co-existed. Then the Christian crusaders came in the 11th century and SLAUGHTERED everyone, Muslims AND Jews. Then, Islamic leader Salahuddin came 150-200 years later and liberated Jerusalem. Again, same thing. No lands were taken, no forced conversions. He even spared the Christians who slaughtered everyone 150 years ago. Then the Ottomons came and ruled over from 14 or 15th century and implemented the Millet system where every religious community had their own government. Again, Jews, Christians and Muslims co-existed. Then it allll went down hill from 1917 onwards. I won't go into details but it lead to the Nakba in 1948, where British soldiers were commanded to evict Palestinians. 750K Palestinians displaced. Tens of thousands were killed. Women were raped (watch Tarantulla, watch the Jewish soliders ADMIT TO THIS). So mate, there's a massive difference. It's not just a piece of land. It's generations upon generations of families. And their homes being stolen. They're being KICKED off their lands. Generations where they've experienced so many atrocities. Atrocities that are being committed still to this day. And if you want to understand even an ounce of the terrorism that Israeli soldiers commit against Palestinians in occupied territory, what better way than to listen straight from the mouths of ex-IDF soldiers? Well, good news for you, ex-IDF soliders in early 2000 created an org called "Breaking the silence". Look it up. THere you'll find over 300 video confessions + 200 text confessions of IDF confessing to acts of terrorism. Examples include occupying a home just to watch the World Cup, or to sleep in it while ALL the family sits in one room. Using children as human shields to do their search operations. They literally coined the term "neighborhood procedure" where they use Palestinians to knock on suspected "terrorists" homes to scout them out (Such cowards). You'll come across videos of soldiers confessing to killing an innocent man on the rooftop bc he looked at them weird. Or killing a child 40 min after he threw a molotov. I mean the list goes on and on. All that I described are from the video confessions. No propaganda. No BS. All straight from ex-IDF soldiers. Watch the videos on "Breaking the silence" and then come tell me if they can just "accept and move on". So it's not just about land my friend. It's about occupation, oppression, etc.

squidbeak 3y ago

It's their home and they have nowhere else to go. Wouldn't you want to preserve your community, culture and homeland?

mupuff1234 3y ago
They have a home in Gaza and the west bank - most of Palestinians today have never been inside the 67' borders so how exactly is it their home? I'm pro a 2 state solution based on the 67' borders, fighting over some "right of return" to a place you've never been for generations just seems like a waste of life. And if you even take the very long term view, a 2 state solution could eventually lead to open borders, and an implicit "right of return" (after decades of peace and building trust).
- adhamsalama 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - mupuff1234 3y ago
    It's their home because they live there now. (on purpose i try to refrain for going all historical because we live in the present, not the past)
  - spookie 3y ago
    If Europeans would continue having that train of thought they would still be fighting. Alas, someone had those same thoughts back in February 2022. And now it's a minefield. Dwelling on the past is a recipe for disaster, having grandiose thoughts of conquest is very much the same (hint: Netanyahu's colonization efforts, I thought I should be fair and account for that too).
  - bitcurious 3y ago
    Oh boy. First, most Israeli Jews are of middle eastern origins, expelled from their homes in the surrounding Arab states. Second, like someone else noted, possession is 9/10th of the law, i.e., the world belongs to the living. Third, the Jewish people are the indigenous people of Israel - there is evidence of Hebrew being the language of the region 4500 years ago.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- lazyasciiart 3y ago
  There are millions of people in Africa who have been born and grown up in refugee camps, and you are arguing that they should all simply give up and consider themselves settled there forever because they’ve never been to the places their parents or grandparents fled? For one thing, they might believe that an entire farm would be better to live in than a single flattened apartment? And then you argue for the ‘67 borders: that’s 50 years ago, what makes those the borders we should roll back to when almost no Palestinians of today were alive before then?
  - mupuff1234 3y ago
    > and you are arguing that they should all simply give up and consider themselves settled there forever I can't comment on all the situations because I have very little familiarity with refugees in africa, but assuming they don't have a state to return to and they can form a new state where they are? Then yes, 100% yes. The 67' borders are internationally recognized, so I'm saying accept that and move on. My grandparents lived in eastern Europe before the Holocaust, I'm not crying to return there because I have a new home. Throughout history humans have been nomadic and moved from place to place. If you take any person and go up along their ancestry line at some point you'd probably encounter some ancestor that was displaced (by another tribe, nation, lord, just some bastard, etc), and yet we don't dwell on that.
    - lazyasciiart 3y ago
      The ‘67 borders may be internationally recognized but they are not currently in existence, which is why I am confused by your conflating the ideas of just accepting where you are now and returning to the borders that existed 50 years ago.
      - mupuff1234 3y ago
        Accepting where we are now as in accepting the current international borders as more or less the blueprint.
HDThoreaun 3y ago
Well no, the vast majority of palestinians have never lived in Israel, it is not there home.

xkekjrktllss 3y ago

Where do you suggest they go?

mupuff1234 3y ago
Gaza and the west bank, where they currently live. And israel should remove the settlements of course.

abusada 3y ago

Sure, move on to where? do what? I'm curious, how much do you know about the situation here?

mupuff1234 3y ago
Stay put. Palestinians should get a state in Gaza and the west bank. I'd like to think I have a somewhat decent understanding of the situation, but flawed and with its own biases of course.

sam1994 3y ago

I don't think you even understand the gravity of the situation. Not only did Palestinians were forcibly evicted in 1948 (The Nakba), they're being continuously occupied by an apartheid, racist and terrorist regime. This is not a matter of conquest my friend. Because look. And bear with me. This might be long. But it's worth it. The Muslims conquered the lands of Jerusalem in 638 AD where the first Islamic Caliphate, Umar Ibn Khattab, besieged the city and the Christians surrendered. He took over without bloodshed. When Umar Ibn Khattab asked them, where are the Jews? He was surprised to hear they were all slaughtered or driven away by the Byzantine Christians sometime around 138-150 AD. He said, bring 20 Jewish families and establish them here. No lands were stolen, nothing was taken, no forced conversions were made. Jews Christians and Muslims co-existed. Then the Christian crusaders came in the 11th century and SLAUGHTERED everyone, Muslims AND Jews. Then, Islamic leader Salahuddin came 150-200 years later and liberated Jerusalem. Again, same thing. No lands were taken, no forced conversions. He even spared the Christians who slaughtered everyone 150 years ago. Then the Ottomons came and ruled over from 14 or 15th century and implemented the Millet system where every religious community had their own government. Again, Jews, Christians and Muslims co-existed. Then it allll went down hill from 1917 onwards. I won't go into details but it lead to the Nakba in 1948, where British soldiers were commanded to evict Palestinians. 750K Palestinians displaced. Tens of thousands were killed. Women were raped (watch Tarantulla, watch the Jewish soliders ADMIT TO THIS). So mate, there's a massive difference. It's not just a piece of land. It's generations upon generations of families. And their homes being stolen. They're being KICKED off their lands. Generations where they've experienced so many atrocities. Atrocities that are being committed still to this day. And if you want to understand even an ounce of the terrorism that Israeli soldiers commit against Palestinians in occupied territory, what better way than to listen straight from the mouths of ex-IDF soldiers? Well, good news for you, ex-IDF soliders in early 2000 created an org called "Breaking the silence". Look it up. THere you'll find over 300 video confessions + 200 text confessions of IDF confessing to acts of terrorism. Examples include occupying a home just to watch the World Cup, or to sleep in it while ALL the family sits in one room. Using children as human shields to do their search operations. They literally coined the term "neighborhood procedure" where they use Palestinians to knock on suspected "terrorists" homes to scout them out (Such cowards). You'll come across videos of soldiers confessing to killing an innocent man on the rooftop bc he looked at them weird. Or killing a child 40 min after he threw a molotov. I mean the list goes on and on. All that I described are from the video confessions. No propaganda. No BS. All straight from ex-IDF soldiers. Watch the videos on "Breaking the silence" and then come tell me if they can just "accept and move on". So it's not just about land my friend. It's about occupation, oppression, etc.