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I kind of take the opposite position. History is complicated, always. However, the basic problem of Israel and Palestine is that Palestinians either live under

I kind of take the opposite position. History is complicated, always. However, the basic problem of Israel and Palestine is that Palestinians either live under military law (the West Bank) or in a big prison (Gaza). That's obviously not a democratic, dignified, or otherwise morally defensible situation. Ultimately, the security needs of Israel need to be balanced against the rights of the Palestinians, and as it stands, the Palestinians have no negotiating power, so they get nothing. If politicians around the world made it clear you cannot be 'the only democracy in the middle east' while having millions of people subject to military law, I expect the Palestinians would have enough negotiating room to force some kind of reasonable settlement.

dotancohen 3y ago
Well then you really should look at how the West Bank came to fall under military law, and how the Gaza Strip became overpopulated with both its neighboring countries closing its borders. History is complicated, yes, but it is how we got into this situation and everybody's idea of a solution is based on their preferred version of history.
- lazyasciiart 3y ago
  You cannot be “the only democracy in the Middle East” and use the excuse that the other countries are making you be authoritarian despots. That makes you just another authoritarian country with trappings of democracy for part of the population.
  - selestify 3y ago
    By that logic, the US is an authoritarian country. There’s a meaningful distinction to be made between whether your own citizens have a direct say in their governance or not, regardless of how foreigners in foreign countries may be oppressed.
    - lazyasciiart 3y ago
      Are Palestinians citizens of Israel, or is it a foreign country that Israeli settlers are invading?
      - dotancohen 3y ago
        > Are Palestinians citizens of Israel, or is it a foreign country Palestinians who live in the lands that Israel has ruled since 1948 are citizens of Israel. The West Bank is not a foreign country, there was never an independent state/country established there. I do not know why the Arabs did not establish an independent Arab state in the West Bank in 1948. In any case, Jordan militarily occupied the area from 1948 to 1967 and Israel militarily occupies the area since. And Israel has been trying to pass off that occupation to an entity that would establish an independent state there for almost 30 years. But no such entity existed or exists today. The PA would be the first contender, but they are incapable of actually administrating the area, and also they rejected every single offer that Israel made to pass the duty of administering the land to them. > that Israeli settlers are invading The Israeli settlers are not invading. I've repeated this a few times in this thread, so this is a copy-paste: League of Nations (and UN) mandates can not change the laws of the lands they administer - then can only issue temporary orders (usually limited to three years). So British orders are not valid in the holy land today. Likewise, military occupation (Jordanian, Israeli) also can not change the laws but rather can issue temporary orders. So the law of the land in the West Bank even today remains Ottoman law, modulo "temporary" Israeli military orders that are actually renewed (for the most part) every three years or so. Ottoman law since the 1850's stated that anyone who settles land (houses, farms, factories) owns it - Muslims and Jews and Christians alike. Their goal was to increase the population of the near-desolate holy land (which they called Greater Syria), and collect more taxes. Those laws still stand today, for better or for worse. There is nothing "illegal" about Israeli citizens building homes in the West Bank. What would be illegal would be if the Israeli state were to transfer its citizens - international law is binding on states, not citizens. But citizens moving is not banned by any international law, and settlement of the West Bank is actually encouraged by the laws in the West Bank dating over 150 years, because nobody since has had the authority to change those laws.
  - dotancohen 3y ago
    > You cannot be “the only democracy in the Middle East” and use the excuse that the other countries are making you be authoritarian despots. I agree with you. Where we disagree is the I "use the excuse that the other countries are making [us] be authoritarian despots". I do not think that we are authoritarian despots. I think that we have been maintaining a military occupation for over fifty years, that we have been trying desperately to rid ourselves of for thirty years. We have nobody to hand that territory over to. If you can find a body to administer the West Bank, I'd love to hear your suggestion. The obvious bodies who have been tasked with developing this authority, such as the PA, have proven themselves time and time again of being incapable of such.

dotancohen 3y ago

Well then you really should look at how the West Bank came to fall under military law, and how the Gaza Strip became overpopulated with both its neighboring countries closing its borders. History is complicated, yes, but it is how we got into this situation and everybody's idea of a solution is based on their preferred version of history.

lazyasciiart 3y ago
You cannot be “the only democracy in the Middle East” and use the excuse that the other countries are making you be authoritarian despots. That makes you just another authoritarian country with trappings of democracy for part of the population.
- selestify 3y ago
  By that logic, the US is an authoritarian country. There’s a meaningful distinction to be made between whether your own citizens have a direct say in their governance or not, regardless of how foreigners in foreign countries may be oppressed.
  - lazyasciiart 3y ago
    Are Palestinians citizens of Israel, or is it a foreign country that Israeli settlers are invading?
    - dotancohen 3y ago
      > Are Palestinians citizens of Israel, or is it a foreign country Palestinians who live in the lands that Israel has ruled since 1948 are citizens of Israel. The West Bank is not a foreign country, there was never an independent state/country established there. I do not know why the Arabs did not establish an independent Arab state in the West Bank in 1948. In any case, Jordan militarily occupied the area from 1948 to 1967 and Israel militarily occupies the area since. And Israel has been trying to pass off that occupation to an entity that would establish an independent state there for almost 30 years. But no such entity existed or exists today. The PA would be the first contender, but they are incapable of actually administrating the area, and also they rejected every single offer that Israel made to pass the duty of administering the land to them. > that Israeli settlers are invading The Israeli settlers are not invading. I've repeated this a few times in this thread, so this is a copy-paste: League of Nations (and UN) mandates can not change the laws of the lands they administer - then can only issue temporary orders (usually limited to three years). So British orders are not valid in the holy land today. Likewise, military occupation (Jordanian, Israeli) also can not change the laws but rather can issue temporary orders. So the law of the land in the West Bank even today remains Ottoman law, modulo "temporary" Israeli military orders that are actually renewed (for the most part) every three years or so. Ottoman law since the 1850's stated that anyone who settles land (houses, farms, factories) owns it - Muslims and Jews and Christians alike. Their goal was to increase the population of the near-desolate holy land (which they called Greater Syria), and collect more taxes. Those laws still stand today, for better or for worse. There is nothing "illegal" about Israeli citizens building homes in the West Bank. What would be illegal would be if the Israeli state were to transfer its citizens - international law is binding on states, not citizens. But citizens moving is not banned by any international law, and settlement of the West Bank is actually encouraged by the laws in the West Bank dating over 150 years, because nobody since has had the authority to change those laws.
- dotancohen 3y ago
  > You cannot be “the only democracy in the Middle East” and use the excuse that the other countries are making you be authoritarian despots. I agree with you. Where we disagree is the I "use the excuse that the other countries are making [us] be authoritarian despots". I do not think that we are authoritarian despots. I think that we have been maintaining a military occupation for over fifty years, that we have been trying desperately to rid ourselves of for thirty years. We have nobody to hand that territory over to. If you can find a body to administer the West Bank, I'd love to hear your suggestion. The obvious bodies who have been tasked with developing this authority, such as the PA, have proven themselves time and time again of being incapable of such.