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> Second, Israel isn't "murdering" civilians in collective retribution. Dehumanization is the first step to a genocide. Additionally, this does not explain th

> Second, Israel isn't "murdering" civilians in collective retribution. Dehumanization is the first step to a genocide. Additionally, this does not explain the violence being done in the West Bank to Palestinians, a population that is notably not ruled by Hamas.

edanm 3y ago
What did I say that was dehumanizing? If you're talking about me putting the word "murder" in quotes, it's because casualties of war aren't usually referred to as victims of murder, but I was quoting the parent post. > Additionally, this does not explain the violence being done in the West Bank to Palestinians, a population that is notably not ruled by Hamas. There are definitely Hamas operatives there as well, not to mention a public that is overwhelmingly supportive of Hamas's actions. I'm not saying this to say they should be "punished", I'm saying this to explain that there are genuine security threats that Israel needs to deal with in the WB as well. That said, some of the violence there is totally unjustified, especially violence instigated by settlers and not the IDF.
- MSFT_Edging 3y ago
  You are conveniently ignoring that these aren't civilians getting caught in a crossfire. They're civilians being targeted. You don't kill about 20k civilians in 2 months without targeting civilians. To call these deaths simply a casualty of a normal war is seriously undercutting how heinous the actions by the IDF are.
  - edanm 3y ago
    I'm not ignoring that, I don't believe that's the case. > You don't kill about 20k civilians in 2 months without targeting civilians. None of us have any way of knowing if that 20k civilian count is accurate. Gaza's Ministry of Health doesn't, as far as I know, give a breakdown of whether the deaths are militants or civilians. So according to their numbers, literally 0 Hamas militants have been killed and all 20k deaths are civilians. Obviously if that's true, then that would prove the IDF is targeting civilians. But it's obviously not true. The IDF's own estimation is about 5k militants dead, and around 10k civilians dead. A terrible tragedy that any civilians die, of course - but not an order of magnitude difference to other conflicts, as some people are presenting it.
    - MSFT_Edging 3y ago
      I really cannot give any reasonable credence to IDF numbers. They have been shown to be fabricating evidence near constantly since October 7th. Additionally, how many "Hamas" combatants were just executions of unarmed individuals like this? https://x.com/Shepherds4Good/status/1734241654465343594?s=20 https://x.com/Shepherds4Good/status/1734241654465343594?s=20 The Israeli Occupying force is not a trustworthy source. Neither is Hamas but Hamas has been seemingly fabricating less things, and providing proof to claims, unlike the IOF. Remember the decapitated babies? or babies cooked in ovens? None of that was ever proved.
      - edanm 3y ago
        > I really cannot give any reasonable credence to IDF numbers. They have been shown to be fabricating evidence near constantly since October 7th. I'm sorry, not sure how else to say this, but this is just not true, and I'm fairly sure the fact that you think this means you're in a very particular internet bubble that likes to just make things up about the IDF. Both by deciding that true things are actually not true based on flimsy evidence, and by talking constantly about things that they think the IDF has said that are wrong, and ignoring the vast amounts of things that are for sure true. (Unless you don't believe in any media, in any other Western government, etc, in which case I have no way to convince you.) > The Israeli Occupying force is not a trustworthy source. Neither is Hamas but Hamas has been seemingly fabricating less things, This is a ridiculous. Hamas are a terrorist organization that is also effectively a dictatorship. They don't allow free press, they have a lot of active control over what their own citizens are allowed to say, etc. Israel has free press, citizens that are free to say whatever they want, etc. The fact that you hear more critical things about the IDF is a consequence of Israel being more trustworthy. Israel has journalists that are critical of the IDF and fact-check statements, and sometimes write stories that show falsehoods. That's the system working - that's how you know that the rest of the stuff isn't lies. You don't see similar information about Hamas because they don't give that kind of access to journalists, and will kill civilians that speak against them. > Remember the decapitated babies? or babies cooked in ovens? None of that was ever proved. This is an example of being in a Twitter bubble. I'm not sure what exact claim you think was made by the IDF and that has no proof, because so many versions of this have gone around. Some of it is real and confirmed by various sources (afaik there were some beheaded babies, though unclear if the beheading was before or after death). Some are things that first responders or others said to news reporters and got signal-boosted, but were never said or confirmed by Israeli officials (like that 40 beheaded babies were found). Similar to the "babies cooked in ovens" thing - this was said by a first responder, I'm not even sure what is the truth there. But to hear Twitter talk about it, these are the only stories that matter or that anyone is talking about, rather than unofficial rumors that were spread because they are ghastly. The real, completely verified things that happened on October 7th are plenty horrible enough. And none of that even matters when what we're talking about is the credibility of the IDF's reports on the fighting in Gaza, which is a completely separate thing. (Seriously though - if you're taking the word of Hamas, a terrorist dictatorship, over the word of Israel - you are fundamentally misunderstanding what the two sides in this fight even are, or misunderstanding what being a democracy with a free press means.)

edanm 3y ago

What did I say that was dehumanizing? If you're talking about me putting the word "murder" in quotes, it's because casualties of war aren't usually referred to as victims of murder, but I was quoting the parent post. > Additionally, this does not explain the violence being done in the West Bank to Palestinians, a population that is notably not ruled by Hamas. There are definitely Hamas operatives there as well, not to mention a public that is overwhelmingly supportive of Hamas's actions. I'm not saying this to say they should be "punished", I'm saying this to explain that there are genuine security threats that Israel needs to deal with in the WB as well. That said, some of the violence there is totally unjustified, especially violence instigated by settlers and not the IDF.

MSFT_Edging 3y ago
You are conveniently ignoring that these aren't civilians getting caught in a crossfire. They're civilians being targeted. You don't kill about 20k civilians in 2 months without targeting civilians. To call these deaths simply a casualty of a normal war is seriously undercutting how heinous the actions by the IDF are.
- edanm 3y ago
  I'm not ignoring that, I don't believe that's the case. > You don't kill about 20k civilians in 2 months without targeting civilians. None of us have any way of knowing if that 20k civilian count is accurate. Gaza's Ministry of Health doesn't, as far as I know, give a breakdown of whether the deaths are militants or civilians. So according to their numbers, literally 0 Hamas militants have been killed and all 20k deaths are civilians. Obviously if that's true, then that would prove the IDF is targeting civilians. But it's obviously not true. The IDF's own estimation is about 5k militants dead, and around 10k civilians dead. A terrible tragedy that any civilians die, of course - but not an order of magnitude difference to other conflicts, as some people are presenting it.
  - MSFT_Edging 3y ago
    I really cannot give any reasonable credence to IDF numbers. They have been shown to be fabricating evidence near constantly since October 7th. Additionally, how many "Hamas" combatants were just executions of unarmed individuals like this? https://x.com/Shepherds4Good/status/1734241654465343594?s=20 https://x.com/Shepherds4Good/status/1734241654465343594?s=20 The Israeli Occupying force is not a trustworthy source. Neither is Hamas but Hamas has been seemingly fabricating less things, and providing proof to claims, unlike the IOF. Remember the decapitated babies? or babies cooked in ovens? None of that was ever proved.
    - edanm 3y ago
      > I really cannot give any reasonable credence to IDF numbers. They have been shown to be fabricating evidence near constantly since October 7th. I'm sorry, not sure how else to say this, but this is just not true, and I'm fairly sure the fact that you think this means you're in a very particular internet bubble that likes to just make things up about the IDF. Both by deciding that true things are actually not true based on flimsy evidence, and by talking constantly about things that they think the IDF has said that are wrong, and ignoring the vast amounts of things that are for sure true. (Unless you don't believe in any media, in any other Western government, etc, in which case I have no way to convince you.) > The Israeli Occupying force is not a trustworthy source. Neither is Hamas but Hamas has been seemingly fabricating less things, This is a ridiculous. Hamas are a terrorist organization that is also effectively a dictatorship. They don't allow free press, they have a lot of active control over what their own citizens are allowed to say, etc. Israel has free press, citizens that are free to say whatever they want, etc. The fact that you hear more critical things about the IDF is a consequence of Israel being more trustworthy. Israel has journalists that are critical of the IDF and fact-check statements, and sometimes write stories that show falsehoods. That's the system working - that's how you know that the rest of the stuff isn't lies. You don't see similar information about Hamas because they don't give that kind of access to journalists, and will kill civilians that speak against them. > Remember the decapitated babies? or babies cooked in ovens? None of that was ever proved. This is an example of being in a Twitter bubble. I'm not sure what exact claim you think was made by the IDF and that has no proof, because so many versions of this have gone around. Some of it is real and confirmed by various sources (afaik there were some beheaded babies, though unclear if the beheading was before or after death). Some are things that first responders or others said to news reporters and got signal-boosted, but were never said or confirmed by Israeli officials (like that 40 beheaded babies were found). Similar to the "babies cooked in ovens" thing - this was said by a first responder, I'm not even sure what is the truth there. But to hear Twitter talk about it, these are the only stories that matter or that anyone is talking about, rather than unofficial rumors that were spread because they are ghastly. The real, completely verified things that happened on October 7th are plenty horrible enough. And none of that even matters when what we're talking about is the credibility of the IDF's reports on the fighting in Gaza, which is a completely separate thing. (Seriously though - if you're taking the word of Hamas, a terrorist dictatorship, over the word of Israel - you are fundamentally misunderstanding what the two sides in this fight even are, or misunderstanding what being a democracy with a free press means.)