6 ms·

Gaza has been pseudo self governed since 2005, and is ruled by an authoritarian theocratic regime. The situation was intolerable on 10/6 but understood. What

Gaza has been pseudo self governed since 2005, and is ruled by an authoritarian theocratic regime. The situation was intolerable on 10/6 but understood. What exactly should israel do after the 10/7 attacks. To me attempting to degrade Hamas is what any other state would do. War in one of the most densely populated places on earth is going to kill a lot of people. The only other option it would seem to me would be to ignore the attacks which I'm sure wouldn't be acceptable to the citizens of Israel.

bjourne 3y ago
During Second World War the Czech resistance assassinated Reich Protector Reinhard Heydrich. To exact revenge the Nazis destroyed the village of Lidice and murdered 340 villagers. If we had social media back then, people would have made the same argument you now do. That the Germans had no choice but to eradicate the village. Because, hey, the only other option would be to ignore the attacks which surely wouldn't have been acceptable to any German.
- galahad_ 3y ago
  [flagged]
- sabarn01 3y ago
  What would you suggest Israel do if fighting hamas is not an option. Also the Nazis killed civilians as a goal not by happenstance.
  - sillystuff 3y ago
    Israeli leaders have been quoted as saying they intend to erase Gaza, flatten Gaza, etc. Their top general has called Palestinian civilians "human animals". The PM has been quoting bible verse to justify genocide. There is no question Israel is murdering civilians as a goal not by happenstance. And, they didn't begin only with this latest massacre. Israeli leaders have a euphemism for their periodic massacres of Palestinian civilians; they call it, "mowing the lawn." E.g., only a few years ago, there was a peaceful march of thousands of Palestinians demanding their right to return to their homes on the other side of the separation wall. The Israelis opened fire with live ammunition, murdering 200, and maiming thousands more-- it appears the Israeli snipers were aiming for the protesters' kneecaps to permanently disable them. The protesters were unarmed. Zero coverage in the western corporate press. In a prior massacre of Gaza that the Israelis called, "Operation Cast Lead", the Israeli snipers wore shirts with a picture of a pregnant women in the cross hairs of a rifle, with the slogan (in Hebrew) below, "One bullet, two kills." And, as has been ongoing continuously for decades, Palestinians were forced from their homes by Israeli settlers only days before the October attacks. And there was a murder of Palestinians by Israeli settlers also only days before the attack-- these things happen literally all the time, so it is expected that there would be. Israel has also kidnapped more civilians including children than they released in the prisoner exchange since they began this most recent massacre of Gaza. If you paid attention, the hostages Israel released were in large part women and children, held for years without charge, and under indefinite detention. Two of the children they released were two 14 year old boys who were 11 or 12 when kidnapped by Israel, and they were released into an area where there is no way for a Palestinian to travel to the area their families reside, as Israel prohibits Palestinian travel. There were plenty of younger child hostages released by Israel as well. These kidnappings (without charge and indefinite detention) are also a constant occurrence. Pretty much a guarantee, if you are caught demonstrating against the occupation.
    - sabarn01 3y ago
      So what should Israel do as a concrete step. If your only answers is right of return you have an unworkable first step.
      - sillystuff 3y ago
        This would be a good start. Begin an honest conversation of the current situation, and how we got there. The closest thing to a just resolution, at this point, would be for Israel to allow Palestinians to return to their homes in what is now called Israel. Remove the laws from the books that favor Jewish Israeli citizens over non-Jewish citizens of Israel-- e.g., no more Jewish only roads. The demographics will change. Jews will be a minority. Place names will likely return to their original names. Jewish extremists will likely engage in terrorism, but hopefully the violence will be short lived. Many Jews (those of European decent, in large part, maintain dual citizenship with European countries / the US) will, likely, voluntarily leave. The rest will have to incorporate themselves into this new reality of a single state where the indigenous Palestinians are equal citizens. The vast majority of Israeli Jews are living on recently stolen land, even inside recently stolen homes. Much of this must go back to their rightful owners for there to be justice. But, the Jewish newcomers can remain. Under Muslim Ottoman rule, the region now know as Israel/Palestine was multi-religious with mostly peaceful coexistence. It can be that again. Israel has foreclosed any possibility of a "two state" solution with their continuous settling of Palestinian land. There no longer exists any Palestinian controlled land to create a Palestinian state separate from that major portion of their land that is now called Israel that was stolen and given to the Jewish settlers by the British after WWI. What happened to Jews in Europe in WWII was horrific, but Palestinians had nothing to do with that. What is currently happening to the Palestinians is similar to what the Jews in Europe experienced. But, this time, the Zionist Jews are the oppressor. The actions of Israel are creating an environment around the world where people predisposed to antisemitism can point at an example of how evil Jews are as justification of their hatred. It was once possible to separate Jew from Zionist, but Zionists have been doing their best to confuse that. The peace organization, Jewish Voices for Peace is now "antisemitic". Things need to change in Palestine/Israel or Jews are not going to be safe anywhere. And, many many more innocent Palestinian civilians will be massacred. So, yes. Right of return is not only required by UN resolutions, it is the only solution that will bring some semblance of justice, and thus bring peace.
  - cultofmetatron 3y ago
    > Also the Nazis killed civilians as a goal not by happenstance. the actual numbers in casualty count don't convince me that the IDF is acting any different. PS: I know I'll be downvoted for this. look at the numbers of KIDS killed. hamas are not the only babykillers here.
    - kaba0 3y ago
      A 16 years old with a gun is a kid, according to hamas.
      - cultofmetatron 3y ago
        and what about the 13 year old boy who was sodomized in an israeli military prison? a human rights watch group documented it and presented it to the IDF. the next day, the IDF confiscated their computers and labeled them a "terrorist group" https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/tamara-nassar/israel-criminalized-group-following-report-raped-palestinian-child https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/tamara-nassar/israel-cr...
  - bjourne 3y ago
    “We are asked to look for high-rise buildings with half a floor that can be attributed to Hamas,” said one source who took part in previous Israeli offensives in Gaza. “Sometimes it is a militant group’s spokesperson’s office, or a point where operatives meet. I understood that the floor is an excuse that allows the army to cause a lot of destruction in Gaza. That is what they told us. “If they would tell the whole world that the [Islamic Jihad] offices on the 10th floor are not important as a target, but that its existence is a justification to bring down the entire high-rise with the aim of pressuring civilian families who live in it in order to put pressure on terrorist organizations, this would itself be seen as terrorism. So they do not say it,” the source added. https://www.972mag.com/mass-assassination-factory-israel-calculated-bombing-gaza/ https://www.972mag.com/mass-assassination-factory-israel-cal... The destruction levied in Gaza is not about achieving any military aims. It is about satiating the Israeli public's monstrous appetite for blood. The primary goal of the government is ensuring that it wins the next election too. Benjamin Netanyahu wasn't joking when he said "remember Amalek".
    - lovelyviking 3y ago
      In your response I did not see your answer to the significant part of the question in parent comment. Which is: “ What would you suggest Israel do if fighting hamas is not an option.” Avoiding hard questions is easier as it doesn’t require responsibility. Are you able to provide your answer please to the hardest part of the parent comment?
      - bjourne 3y ago
        This is the same false dilemma that the American war hawks posed prior to the invasion of Iraq in 2003. "What should we do if we can't invade Iraq??" You were then supposed to argue that the US had options and the hawks would then one by one attempt to disqualify those options. It's an incredibly dishonest way of conducting debate. Read the article I linked to. Then claim with a straight face that razing Gaza is the only option Israel has.
        lovelyviking 3y ago
tmnvix 3y ago
I think you're suggesting a false dichotomy here: do nothing or sacrifice the lives of tens of thousands of innocent people in pursuit of your aims. Consider what the Israeli response might have looked like if they didn't have access to the munitions that they do (2000 pound bombs, etc). Likely they would have still invaded Gaza and fought a very bloody battle but with many fewer innocents killed at the expense of more of their own soldiers. Essentially, Israel has made the judgement that the lives of their soldiers are (many times) more important than those of innocent people.
- sabarn01 3y ago
  I think this is true to an extent. I certainly think the US given the same task would have been more surgical, but the US has a lot more money power and resources. Israel has to maintain a military so it can fend off attacks from its neighbor which limits the amount of resources it can expend. Soldiers are a finite resource. Also all countries military's inherently value its own soldiers over an advisory civilians. If I was a IDF general it would be my goal to minimize the casualties taken in securing what ever goal the political leadership sets forth within the laws of war.
  - dragonwriter 3y ago
    > I certainly think the US given the same task would have been more surgical, but the US has a lot more money power and resources Israel having too little “money, power, and resources” is not the reason Israel dropped nearly as many bombs on Gaza in the first six days of its reaction to the Oct. 7 attacks as the US dropped in the peak year of bombing in the Afghanistan war. If anything contributed to that, it was a surplus of resources, not a shortage.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - sabarn01 3y ago
      They may have more bombs than they have manpower. It's about which resources you choose to expend. Also the is has far more precision weapons than anyone else.

bjourne 3y ago

During Second World War the Czech resistance assassinated Reich Protector Reinhard Heydrich. To exact revenge the Nazis destroyed the village of Lidice and murdered 340 villagers. If we had social media back then, people would have made the same argument you now do. That the Germans had no choice but to eradicate the village. Because, hey, the only other option would be to ignore the attacks which surely wouldn't have been acceptable to any German.

galahad_ 3y ago
[flagged]
sabarn01 3y ago
What would you suggest Israel do if fighting hamas is not an option. Also the Nazis killed civilians as a goal not by happenstance.
- sillystuff 3y ago
  Israeli leaders have been quoted as saying they intend to erase Gaza, flatten Gaza, etc. Their top general has called Palestinian civilians "human animals". The PM has been quoting bible verse to justify genocide. There is no question Israel is murdering civilians as a goal not by happenstance. And, they didn't begin only with this latest massacre. Israeli leaders have a euphemism for their periodic massacres of Palestinian civilians; they call it, "mowing the lawn." E.g., only a few years ago, there was a peaceful march of thousands of Palestinians demanding their right to return to their homes on the other side of the separation wall. The Israelis opened fire with live ammunition, murdering 200, and maiming thousands more-- it appears the Israeli snipers were aiming for the protesters' kneecaps to permanently disable them. The protesters were unarmed. Zero coverage in the western corporate press. In a prior massacre of Gaza that the Israelis called, "Operation Cast Lead", the Israeli snipers wore shirts with a picture of a pregnant women in the cross hairs of a rifle, with the slogan (in Hebrew) below, "One bullet, two kills." And, as has been ongoing continuously for decades, Palestinians were forced from their homes by Israeli settlers only days before the October attacks. And there was a murder of Palestinians by Israeli settlers also only days before the attack-- these things happen literally all the time, so it is expected that there would be. Israel has also kidnapped more civilians including children than they released in the prisoner exchange since they began this most recent massacre of Gaza. If you paid attention, the hostages Israel released were in large part women and children, held for years without charge, and under indefinite detention. Two of the children they released were two 14 year old boys who were 11 or 12 when kidnapped by Israel, and they were released into an area where there is no way for a Palestinian to travel to the area their families reside, as Israel prohibits Palestinian travel. There were plenty of younger child hostages released by Israel as well. These kidnappings (without charge and indefinite detention) are also a constant occurrence. Pretty much a guarantee, if you are caught demonstrating against the occupation.
  - sabarn01 3y ago
    So what should Israel do as a concrete step. If your only answers is right of return you have an unworkable first step.
    - sillystuff 3y ago
      This would be a good start. Begin an honest conversation of the current situation, and how we got there. The closest thing to a just resolution, at this point, would be for Israel to allow Palestinians to return to their homes in what is now called Israel. Remove the laws from the books that favor Jewish Israeli citizens over non-Jewish citizens of Israel-- e.g., no more Jewish only roads. The demographics will change. Jews will be a minority. Place names will likely return to their original names. Jewish extremists will likely engage in terrorism, but hopefully the violence will be short lived. Many Jews (those of European decent, in large part, maintain dual citizenship with European countries / the US) will, likely, voluntarily leave. The rest will have to incorporate themselves into this new reality of a single state where the indigenous Palestinians are equal citizens. The vast majority of Israeli Jews are living on recently stolen land, even inside recently stolen homes. Much of this must go back to their rightful owners for there to be justice. But, the Jewish newcomers can remain. Under Muslim Ottoman rule, the region now know as Israel/Palestine was multi-religious with mostly peaceful coexistence. It can be that again. Israel has foreclosed any possibility of a "two state" solution with their continuous settling of Palestinian land. There no longer exists any Palestinian controlled land to create a Palestinian state separate from that major portion of their land that is now called Israel that was stolen and given to the Jewish settlers by the British after WWI. What happened to Jews in Europe in WWII was horrific, but Palestinians had nothing to do with that. What is currently happening to the Palestinians is similar to what the Jews in Europe experienced. But, this time, the Zionist Jews are the oppressor. The actions of Israel are creating an environment around the world where people predisposed to antisemitism can point at an example of how evil Jews are as justification of their hatred. It was once possible to separate Jew from Zionist, but Zionists have been doing their best to confuse that. The peace organization, Jewish Voices for Peace is now "antisemitic". Things need to change in Palestine/Israel or Jews are not going to be safe anywhere. And, many many more innocent Palestinian civilians will be massacred. So, yes. Right of return is not only required by UN resolutions, it is the only solution that will bring some semblance of justice, and thus bring peace.
- cultofmetatron 3y ago
  > Also the Nazis killed civilians as a goal not by happenstance. the actual numbers in casualty count don't convince me that the IDF is acting any different. PS: I know I'll be downvoted for this. look at the numbers of KIDS killed. hamas are not the only babykillers here.
  - kaba0 3y ago
    A 16 years old with a gun is a kid, according to hamas.
    - cultofmetatron 3y ago
      and what about the 13 year old boy who was sodomized in an israeli military prison? a human rights watch group documented it and presented it to the IDF. the next day, the IDF confiscated their computers and labeled them a "terrorist group" https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/tamara-nassar/israel-criminalized-group-following-report-raped-palestinian-child https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/tamara-nassar/israel-cr...
- bjourne 3y ago
  “We are asked to look for high-rise buildings with half a floor that can be attributed to Hamas,” said one source who took part in previous Israeli offensives in Gaza. “Sometimes it is a militant group’s spokesperson’s office, or a point where operatives meet. I understood that the floor is an excuse that allows the army to cause a lot of destruction in Gaza. That is what they told us. “If they would tell the whole world that the [Islamic Jihad] offices on the 10th floor are not important as a target, but that its existence is a justification to bring down the entire high-rise with the aim of pressuring civilian families who live in it in order to put pressure on terrorist organizations, this would itself be seen as terrorism. So they do not say it,” the source added. https://www.972mag.com/mass-assassination-factory-israel-calculated-bombing-gaza/ https://www.972mag.com/mass-assassination-factory-israel-cal... The destruction levied in Gaza is not about achieving any military aims. It is about satiating the Israeli public's monstrous appetite for blood. The primary goal of the government is ensuring that it wins the next election too. Benjamin Netanyahu wasn't joking when he said "remember Amalek".
  - lovelyviking 3y ago
    In your response I did not see your answer to the significant part of the question in parent comment. Which is: “ What would you suggest Israel do if fighting hamas is not an option.” Avoiding hard questions is easier as it doesn’t require responsibility. Are you able to provide your answer please to the hardest part of the parent comment?
    - bjourne 3y ago
      This is the same false dilemma that the American war hawks posed prior to the invasion of Iraq in 2003. "What should we do if we can't invade Iraq??" You were then supposed to argue that the US had options and the hawks would then one by one attempt to disqualify those options. It's an incredibly dishonest way of conducting debate. Read the article I linked to. Then claim with a straight face that razing Gaza is the only option Israel has.
      - lovelyviking 3y ago

tmnvix 3y ago

I think you're suggesting a false dichotomy here: do nothing or sacrifice the lives of tens of thousands of innocent people in pursuit of your aims. Consider what the Israeli response might have looked like if they didn't have access to the munitions that they do (2000 pound bombs, etc). Likely they would have still invaded Gaza and fought a very bloody battle but with many fewer innocents killed at the expense of more of their own soldiers. Essentially, Israel has made the judgement that the lives of their soldiers are (many times) more important than those of innocent people.

sabarn01 3y ago
I think this is true to an extent. I certainly think the US given the same task would have been more surgical, but the US has a lot more money power and resources. Israel has to maintain a military so it can fend off attacks from its neighbor which limits the amount of resources it can expend. Soldiers are a finite resource. Also all countries military's inherently value its own soldiers over an advisory civilians. If I was a IDF general it would be my goal to minimize the casualties taken in securing what ever goal the political leadership sets forth within the laws of war.
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  > I certainly think the US given the same task would have been more surgical, but the US has a lot more money power and resources Israel having too little “money, power, and resources” is not the reason Israel dropped nearly as many bombs on Gaza in the first six days of its reaction to the Oct. 7 attacks as the US dropped in the peak year of bombing in the Afghanistan war. If anything contributed to that, it was a surplus of resources, not a shortage.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - sabarn01 3y ago
    They may have more bombs than they have manpower. It's about which resources you choose to expend. Also the is has far more precision weapons than anyone else.