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You just did the thing: Conflating being pro-Palestine (Anti-zionist) with anti-Jew. Why is it weird to mention non-Israeli jews when being Anti-zionist? The p

You just did the thing: Conflating being pro-Palestine (Anti-zionist) with anti-Jew. Why is it weird to mention non-Israeli jews when being Anti-zionist? The point is to NOT conflate Zionism with being Jewish. The matter of what should happen in Israel/Palestine is separate from this discussion. Anyway, they wouldn't (in theory) necessarily have to go anywhere. Jews and Arabs could have lived together in a single democratic country where one religion/ethnicity isn't favored over another.

tcbawo 3y ago
If the mandate of the nation of Israel is to provide a place of refuge to Jewish people around the world, it must be a country that favors Jewish religion/ethnicity. I think this was the basis for the two-state solution, which somehow seems like even more of an impossibility than in the past. The mandate of Israel as a Jewish state is at odds with a free democracy with equal rights for citizens of all ethnicities/religions. I am also a complete outside observer and have no insights to add, other than what is happening to innocent people has been awful and tragic.
- nielsbot 3y ago
  I disagree we must have a state in modern times that favors a religion or ethnicity. That's basically what South Africa was. See also the history of the USA. Israel can and should be a place for Jews to be safe but it doesn't have to be favor one religion or ethnicity. I think Anti-semitism can be controlled especially in a place with a large minority (or even majority) of Jewish peoples. Before the founding of Israel, Jews, Christians and Muslims generally co-existed with tolerance in the Middle East.
  - mantas 3y ago
    It’s very hard to have a state that doesn’t push one culture or another as primary. Otherwise there’s no glue keeping the society together. Which is important to get people to approve government decisions. As for peacefully coexisting, would you say that Christians and Muslims peacefully coexisted in Ottoman Balkans too?
    - nielsbot 3y ago
      Having a state with a de facto dominant culture is not the same as having a dominant ethnicity/religion by law. Sorry, I don't know about Christians and Muslims in the Ottoman Balkans.. I was more talking about Jews and others in Egypt, Syria, Jordan, etc.
      - mantas 3y ago
        Culture is proxy to ethnicity and religion. And it’s pretty close. E.g. Christmas celebration all around „secular“ Europe. Ottoman rule in Balkans was quite horrific. E.g. Christian’s having to pay tax in young kids most of whom would never see home again. Yet it was rather peaceful with ottomans enforcing the peace :) I’m not that familiar with Jews in Middle East up to 19th century. But IIRC there were plenty of pogroms. And taxes differentiated by religion was common in most Muslim regimes. As well as overall relation with government, ability to make a career etc.
  - tcbawo 3y ago
    Israel’s Law of Return, is seen as a cornerstone of Israel as a Jewish state: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return You could argue that this is not necessary in the modern world. However, proponents argue that many free democracies with diverse populations also see waves of intolerance and anti-Semitism. So, Israel is designated as a place of refuge for Jewish people around the world. If Israel were blind to religion and ethnicity, this protection and guarantee goes away. So, for many supporters around the world, the fight is existential. It is interesting to see the internal politics developing in Israel between ultra-Orthodox and more moderate groups of people, though. There seems to be efforts towards favoring certain classes within the Jewish population. There is a lot of tension in the area and I don’t think there is any easy solution.
amluto 3y ago
> pro-Palestine (Anti-zionist) And you’re conflating being pro-Palestine with being anti-Zionist :) At least, if one discussed pro- or anti-Israel sentiments, it’s a little bit clear what “Israel” means. It’s a country, with something vaguely resembling identifiable borders, with a particular government, citizens, a military, etc. What, exactly, is “Palestine” if one is pro-Palestine or anti-Palestine? Is it the people? (If so, which people? Those who lived in the area currently known as Israel + Gaza + the West Bank and their descendants, but not the descendants of the Jews who settled in the region since the Zionist movement got started? Is it Palestinian refugees as defined by UNRWA? Is it the current civilization in Gaza and the West Bank? What about the multigenerational refugees in camps in nearby countries? [0]. Is it the land itself? Is it the current governments (plural!)? Is it the idea that Israel ought not to exist? (If so, what does Israel not existing even mean?). Is it the idea that innocent Gazans ought not to feel safe in their homes and have access to food, clean water, electricity, and medicine? The whole situation is an unbelievable mess, both because the present situation is a mess and the history is a mess. I don’t a critically considered opinion can be summarized by a single hyphenated term or even two of them. [0] Yes, there are people born in refugee camps in a couple of neighboring countries who are somehow not citizens of those countries. From a US perspective, this is very strange. The descendants of people who fled to the US are most definitely citizens. I don’t think most of them consider themselves to be refugees, nor do many other people consider them to be refugees, nor do they live in refugee camps.
- nielsbot 3y ago
  I guess I meant pro-Palestine in the context of the comment I was responding to--but sure, saying Palestinian could be considered fuzzy. I my mind I meant the people who were forced out of Israel and their descendants living in Gaza, the West Bank and elsewhere.
  - amluto 3y ago
    > I my mind I meant the people who were forced out of Israel and their descendants living in Gaza, the West Bank and elsewhere. Even this definition is associated with what seems to me to be a biased agenda, for two different reasons. First, while the history seems pretty muddled, I don’t think all the people (or their ancestors, anyway) were forced out of what is modern Israel, nor is it particularly clear that Israel or those fighting on Israel’s side did anywhere near 100% of the forcing. Second, there’s something quite bizarre about the “elsewhere” part of this. As an analogy, there’s a rather notable war going on, and there is a group of opinions referred to as “pro-Russian.” I suspect that most people with Russian ancestors but who live far from Russia, including those whose ancestors were, in some sense, forced out, do not want to be lumped in with the “pro-Russian” opinion. A lot of them don’t identify as Russian except by heritage. None of them get to vote in Russian elections, I imagine that very few of them would want to vote in Russian elections, and precious few indeed would want anything to do with a unified Russian + Ukraine. Now I don’t know how actual people of Palestinian heritage but who live far from Palestine feel, and I bet it’s generally pretty complicated. But I think a lot of nuance is lost here. Here’s an interesting article: https://rli.blogs.sas.ac.uk/2021/07/20/refugee-ever-after-why-are-we-letting-palestinians-become-the-worlds-permanent-refugees/ https://rli.blogs.sas.ac.uk/2021/07/20/refugee-ever-after-wh...

tcbawo 3y ago

If the mandate of the nation of Israel is to provide a place of refuge to Jewish people around the world, it must be a country that favors Jewish religion/ethnicity. I think this was the basis for the two-state solution, which somehow seems like even more of an impossibility than in the past. The mandate of Israel as a Jewish state is at odds with a free democracy with equal rights for citizens of all ethnicities/religions. I am also a complete outside observer and have no insights to add, other than what is happening to innocent people has been awful and tragic.

nielsbot 3y ago
I disagree we must have a state in modern times that favors a religion or ethnicity. That's basically what South Africa was. See also the history of the USA. Israel can and should be a place for Jews to be safe but it doesn't have to be favor one religion or ethnicity. I think Anti-semitism can be controlled especially in a place with a large minority (or even majority) of Jewish peoples. Before the founding of Israel, Jews, Christians and Muslims generally co-existed with tolerance in the Middle East.
- mantas 3y ago
  It’s very hard to have a state that doesn’t push one culture or another as primary. Otherwise there’s no glue keeping the society together. Which is important to get people to approve government decisions. As for peacefully coexisting, would you say that Christians and Muslims peacefully coexisted in Ottoman Balkans too?
  - nielsbot 3y ago
    Having a state with a de facto dominant culture is not the same as having a dominant ethnicity/religion by law. Sorry, I don't know about Christians and Muslims in the Ottoman Balkans.. I was more talking about Jews and others in Egypt, Syria, Jordan, etc.
    - mantas 3y ago
      Culture is proxy to ethnicity and religion. And it’s pretty close. E.g. Christmas celebration all around „secular“ Europe. Ottoman rule in Balkans was quite horrific. E.g. Christian’s having to pay tax in young kids most of whom would never see home again. Yet it was rather peaceful with ottomans enforcing the peace :) I’m not that familiar with Jews in Middle East up to 19th century. But IIRC there were plenty of pogroms. And taxes differentiated by religion was common in most Muslim regimes. As well as overall relation with government, ability to make a career etc.
- tcbawo 3y ago
  Israel’s Law of Return, is seen as a cornerstone of Israel as a Jewish state: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return You could argue that this is not necessary in the modern world. However, proponents argue that many free democracies with diverse populations also see waves of intolerance and anti-Semitism. So, Israel is designated as a place of refuge for Jewish people around the world. If Israel were blind to religion and ethnicity, this protection and guarantee goes away. So, for many supporters around the world, the fight is existential. It is interesting to see the internal politics developing in Israel between ultra-Orthodox and more moderate groups of people, though. There seems to be efforts towards favoring certain classes within the Jewish population. There is a lot of tension in the area and I don’t think there is any easy solution.

amluto 3y ago

> pro-Palestine (Anti-zionist) And you’re conflating being pro-Palestine with being anti-Zionist :) At least, if one discussed pro- or anti-Israel sentiments, it’s a little bit clear what “Israel” means. It’s a country, with something vaguely resembling identifiable borders, with a particular government, citizens, a military, etc. What, exactly, is “Palestine” if one is pro-Palestine or anti-Palestine? Is it the people? (If so, which people? Those who lived in the area currently known as Israel + Gaza + the West Bank and their descendants, but not the descendants of the Jews who settled in the region since the Zionist movement got started? Is it Palestinian refugees as defined by UNRWA? Is it the current civilization in Gaza and the West Bank? What about the multigenerational refugees in camps in nearby countries? [0]. Is it the land itself? Is it the current governments (plural!)? Is it the idea that Israel ought not to exist? (If so, what does Israel not existing even mean?). Is it the idea that innocent Gazans ought not to feel safe in their homes and have access to food, clean water, electricity, and medicine? The whole situation is an unbelievable mess, both because the present situation is a mess and the history is a mess. I don’t a critically considered opinion can be summarized by a single hyphenated term or even two of them. [0] Yes, there are people born in refugee camps in a couple of neighboring countries who are somehow not citizens of those countries. From a US perspective, this is very strange. The descendants of people who fled to the US are most definitely citizens. I don’t think most of them consider themselves to be refugees, nor do many other people consider them to be refugees, nor do they live in refugee camps.

nielsbot 3y ago
I guess I meant pro-Palestine in the context of the comment I was responding to--but sure, saying Palestinian could be considered fuzzy. I my mind I meant the people who were forced out of Israel and their descendants living in Gaza, the West Bank and elsewhere.
- amluto 3y ago
  > I my mind I meant the people who were forced out of Israel and their descendants living in Gaza, the West Bank and elsewhere. Even this definition is associated with what seems to me to be a biased agenda, for two different reasons. First, while the history seems pretty muddled, I don’t think all the people (or their ancestors, anyway) were forced out of what is modern Israel, nor is it particularly clear that Israel or those fighting on Israel’s side did anywhere near 100% of the forcing. Second, there’s something quite bizarre about the “elsewhere” part of this. As an analogy, there’s a rather notable war going on, and there is a group of opinions referred to as “pro-Russian.” I suspect that most people with Russian ancestors but who live far from Russia, including those whose ancestors were, in some sense, forced out, do not want to be lumped in with the “pro-Russian” opinion. A lot of them don’t identify as Russian except by heritage. None of them get to vote in Russian elections, I imagine that very few of them would want to vote in Russian elections, and precious few indeed would want anything to do with a unified Russian + Ukraine. Now I don’t know how actual people of Palestinian heritage but who live far from Palestine feel, and I bet it’s generally pretty complicated. But I think a lot of nuance is lost here. Here’s an interesting article: https://rli.blogs.sas.ac.uk/2021/07/20/refugee-ever-after-why-are-we-letting-palestinians-become-the-worlds-permanent-refugees/ https://rli.blogs.sas.ac.uk/2021/07/20/refugee-ever-after-wh...