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That's just untrue. Sudan, Yemen and (earlier) Ethiopia had much much more, without even going into Ukraine (nobody should accept the Russian figures) or Syria

by yyyk 3y ago

That's just untrue. Sudan, Yemen and (earlier) Ethiopia had much much more, without even going into Ukraine (nobody should accept the Russian figures) or Syria (death toll exceeding all Israeli-Arab wars combined). Doing a death toll per month analysis is misleading because high intensity can't last very long due to geography alone.

bjourne 3y ago
No, it's true. Roughly 1% of Gaza's pre-war population has already been killed by Israel. 81% has been displaced and over 60% of all buildings have been damaged or destroyed. The amount of destruction Russia was brought upon Ukraine doesn't even come close.
- yyyk 3y ago
  Buildings and temporary displacement inside the Strip aren't interesting - some Gulf states will cover reconstruction, and the royal houses will have a few less yachts. Ukraine lost a double-digit % of its population when you include permanent displacement (these refugees will not return), and its civilian casualties are absurdly underestimated (yea, Mariupol had 1K, right - when the Russians bombed places with the writing 'children' on them). Syria had an official 500K - only because they stopped counting - and millions of refugees. These are literally on another scale by both time and damage, without even going into Sudan/Yemen which are on a scale of their own.
  - bjourne 3y ago
    > Buildings and temporary displacement inside the Strip aren't interesting - some Gulf states will cover reconstruction, and the royal houses will have a few less yachts. Well, the only way to claim something absolutely idiotic like that is to have absolutely no clue: During the fifty days of Operation Protective Edge in the summer of 2014, Israel bombed and shelled the Gaza Strip, causing massive damage to civilian infrastructure and homes. About 18,000 residential units were either completely destroyed or heavily damaged, leaving more than 100,000 Palestinians – some 17,000 families – homeless. [...] Today, more than four years later, about 20% of the homes are still unusable and some 2,300 families – about 13,000 people – remain homeless. Some 1,600 of these families had been receiving rent subsidies from UNRWA at rates ranging from 200 to 250 USD per month, depending on the size of the family. In July 2018, however, following US funding cuts, UNRWA was forced to halt financial assistance, leaving families out in the cold. Families that are still renting are having trouble making payments. https://www.btselem.org/gaza_strip/20190303_13000_gazans_homelsess_since_2014_war https://www.btselem.org/gaza_strip/20190303_13000_gazans_hom... The Gulf states you think are generous have changed their allegiances and are now Israel's friends. The current Israeli government has radicalized even further since 2014 and revel in the suffering of Palestinians and will likely prevent any future reconstruction efforts. The number of refugees from Ukraine is 6.3 million or 14% with up to 30% of its infrastructure damaged. This is less destruction in TWO YEARS than Israel has inflicted in 60 DAYS. https://data.unhcr.org/en/situations/ukraine https://data.unhcr.org/en/situations/ukraine https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/exclusive-russian-invasion-damaged-up-30-ukraines-infrastructure-says-minister-2022-04-18/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/exclusive-russian-invas...
    - yyyk 3y ago
      I don't think there's much comparison between 2014 and 2023 given high international profile. Turkey already promised to pitch in[0] and I'd surprised if others won't follow. I'd rather put the focus on people and not buildings anyway. [0] https://bnn.network/politics/erdogan-pledges-to-rebuild-gaza-a-glimpse-into-turkeys-potential-role/ https://bnn.network/politics/erdogan-pledges-to-rebuild-gaza... P.S. What you wrote about Ukraine just confirms what I wrote above.
      - bjourne 3y ago
        I'm sorry but you don't know what you are talking about. Pledges are cheap, actually paying up the billions required to rebuild Gaza is a different matter. Yeah, we can focus on the death toll alone, but you are still wrong. 17k mostly civilians in 60 days of warfare is unprecedented in recent years.
- goatlover 3y ago
  So you're using percentages to make that dubious claim. Because Russia has certainly cause a lot more overall destruction and death. Where do you get the 60% of damaged or destroyed buildings? I've seen 25%.
  - rendall 3y ago
    There are a lot of people who just credulously cite any statistic when it makes Israel look bad and dismiss anything that mitigates Israeli action as Zionist lies. It's hard to reach these people.
    - dotancohen 3y ago
      > It's hard to reach these people. These people have are narrative-driven, not fact-driven. This is rare to see on HN, but unfortunately very common elsewhere.
      - rendall 3y ago
        I could not finish the OP article. Just pages and pages of special pleading.
  - bjourne 3y ago
    No, Russia haven't. Russia has also MAINLY abided by the laws of war and has not targeted civilian infrastructure. "A United Nations-led aid consortium estimates that more than 234,000 homes have been damaged across Gaza and 46,000 destroyed, amounting to about 60 percent of the housing stock in the territory, which is home to some 2.3 million Palestinians." https://www.aljazeera.com/gallery/2023/11/29/as-truce-holds-people-in-gaza-venture-out-to-survey-destruction https://www.aljazeera.com/gallery/2023/11/29/as-truce-holds-...
    - kaba0 3y ago
      You can target civilian infrastructure in a war if the military advantage you gain from it is higher than the expected civilian costs. It’s so specifically so that militaries can’t just use hospitals as free safe space, and truly humanitarian facilities can work even during war.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

by yyyk 3y ago

bjourne 3y ago

No, it's true. Roughly 1% of Gaza's pre-war population has already been killed by Israel. 81% has been displaced and over 60% of all buildings have been damaged or destroyed. The amount of destruction Russia was brought upon Ukraine doesn't even come close.

yyyk 3y ago
Buildings and temporary displacement inside the Strip aren't interesting - some Gulf states will cover reconstruction, and the royal houses will have a few less yachts. Ukraine lost a double-digit % of its population when you include permanent displacement (these refugees will not return), and its civilian casualties are absurdly underestimated (yea, Mariupol had 1K, right - when the Russians bombed places with the writing 'children' on them). Syria had an official 500K - only because they stopped counting - and millions of refugees. These are literally on another scale by both time and damage, without even going into Sudan/Yemen which are on a scale of their own.
- bjourne 3y ago
  > Buildings and temporary displacement inside the Strip aren't interesting - some Gulf states will cover reconstruction, and the royal houses will have a few less yachts. Well, the only way to claim something absolutely idiotic like that is to have absolutely no clue: During the fifty days of Operation Protective Edge in the summer of 2014, Israel bombed and shelled the Gaza Strip, causing massive damage to civilian infrastructure and homes. About 18,000 residential units were either completely destroyed or heavily damaged, leaving more than 100,000 Palestinians – some 17,000 families – homeless. [...] Today, more than four years later, about 20% of the homes are still unusable and some 2,300 families – about 13,000 people – remain homeless. Some 1,600 of these families had been receiving rent subsidies from UNRWA at rates ranging from 200 to 250 USD per month, depending on the size of the family. In July 2018, however, following US funding cuts, UNRWA was forced to halt financial assistance, leaving families out in the cold. Families that are still renting are having trouble making payments. https://www.btselem.org/gaza_strip/20190303_13000_gazans_homelsess_since_2014_war https://www.btselem.org/gaza_strip/20190303_13000_gazans_hom... The Gulf states you think are generous have changed their allegiances and are now Israel's friends. The current Israeli government has radicalized even further since 2014 and revel in the suffering of Palestinians and will likely prevent any future reconstruction efforts. The number of refugees from Ukraine is 6.3 million or 14% with up to 30% of its infrastructure damaged. This is less destruction in TWO YEARS than Israel has inflicted in 60 DAYS. https://data.unhcr.org/en/situations/ukraine https://data.unhcr.org/en/situations/ukraine https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/exclusive-russian-invasion-damaged-up-30-ukraines-infrastructure-says-minister-2022-04-18/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/exclusive-russian-invas...
  - yyyk 3y ago
    I don't think there's much comparison between 2014 and 2023 given high international profile. Turkey already promised to pitch in[0] and I'd surprised if others won't follow. I'd rather put the focus on people and not buildings anyway. [0] https://bnn.network/politics/erdogan-pledges-to-rebuild-gaza-a-glimpse-into-turkeys-potential-role/ https://bnn.network/politics/erdogan-pledges-to-rebuild-gaza... P.S. What you wrote about Ukraine just confirms what I wrote above.
    - bjourne 3y ago
      I'm sorry but you don't know what you are talking about. Pledges are cheap, actually paying up the billions required to rebuild Gaza is a different matter. Yeah, we can focus on the death toll alone, but you are still wrong. 17k mostly civilians in 60 days of warfare is unprecedented in recent years.
goatlover 3y ago
So you're using percentages to make that dubious claim. Because Russia has certainly cause a lot more overall destruction and death. Where do you get the 60% of damaged or destroyed buildings? I've seen 25%.
- rendall 3y ago
  There are a lot of people who just credulously cite any statistic when it makes Israel look bad and dismiss anything that mitigates Israeli action as Zionist lies. It's hard to reach these people.
  - dotancohen 3y ago
    > It's hard to reach these people. These people have are narrative-driven, not fact-driven. This is rare to see on HN, but unfortunately very common elsewhere.
    - rendall 3y ago
      I could not finish the OP article. Just pages and pages of special pleading.
- bjourne 3y ago
  No, Russia haven't. Russia has also MAINLY abided by the laws of war and has not targeted civilian infrastructure. "A United Nations-led aid consortium estimates that more than 234,000 homes have been damaged across Gaza and 46,000 destroyed, amounting to about 60 percent of the housing stock in the territory, which is home to some 2.3 million Palestinians." https://www.aljazeera.com/gallery/2023/11/29/as-truce-holds-people-in-gaza-venture-out-to-survey-destruction https://www.aljazeera.com/gallery/2023/11/29/as-truce-holds-...
  - kaba0 3y ago
    You can target civilian infrastructure in a war if the military advantage you gain from it is higher than the expected civilian costs. It’s so specifically so that militaries can’t just use hospitals as free safe space, and truly humanitarian facilities can work even during war.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]