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This also presumes that any Muslim will be pro-Palestine and any Jewish person would be pro-Israel, a pretty strong statement given that entire communities with

This also presumes that any Muslim will be pro-Palestine and any Jewish person would be pro-Israel, a pretty strong statement given that entire communities within Israel are staunchly opposed to their ongoing actions against Hamas, which increasingly seem to be actually against Palestinian people, whom themselves also have a wide and diverse set of opinions about Hamas. The war is shockingly unpopular on both sides of itself and seemingly the only people who are in favor of Israel's current plan of action is the Israeli government and the people who, for PR reasons, refuse to criticize Israel since Israel has done such an excellent job propagandizing people into thinking being anti-Israel in any way is synonymous with being anti-Semetic.

zone411 3y ago
> have a wide and diverse set of opinions about Hamas 75% of Palestinians "support the military operation carried out by the Palestinian resistance led by Hamas on October 7th." 76% have positive views of Hamas (other armed terrorist groups have even larger support). https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20Opinion%20Poll%20-%20Gaza%20War%202023%20-%20Tables%20of%20Results.pdf https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20...
- bjourne 3y ago
  I really wish people would stop citing pollsters with no pedigree. What is the Arab World for Research & Development? Who is funding them? Who is conducting their polls? Who staffs them? Are their results reliable?
  - runarberg 3y ago
    Even if these numbers are true, you have to look at them within the lens of colonial warfare. How many black South African supported the ANC against the Apartheid regime? How many Kenyans supported the Mau Mau against the British imperial army? How many Vietnamese supported the Viet Cong against the American army? Today these are considered liberators, but during the colonial wars they were all considered terrorists who conducted inhumane acts. Perhaps people knew that but still supported their fight, simply because they considered the oppression inflected by their colonizers worth fighting against.
    - pxc 3y ago
      And also the context of the ineffectiveness and corruption of collaborationist governing parties like Fatah.
    - ToucanLoucan 3y ago
      This times a thousand. None of this can possibly be understood even remotely well without the broader context of settler colonialism that persists to this day, as Israeli settlers continue colonizing land that is not theirs even now, today. The amazing amount of historical revisionism where once it became so obvious and irrefutable that the causes of these various entities were, in fact, correct the entire time at which point colonial powers suddenly do an about face and call them freedom fighters instead of terrorists in genuinely nauseating. ALL groups in this vein commit various kinds of atrocities, because war, especially guerilla war, is itself largely an atrocity. And more war will only breed more of these groups as more people who do not belong in an area, do not share it's culture, and blatantly do not give a steaming shit about either of those things continue to meddle in their affairs. Hamas will not do open battle with Israel, because of course they'd fucking lose, just like the Taliban would've to us, or the Viet Cong to us, or anyone else. They can't field an army and they know that, they aren't stupid. But what else would you have them do? Just waive the white flag and let the Western powers redraw their borders again, fuck up their cities and culture and treat them like brainless savages to avoid being killed?
      - kaba0 3y ago
        > But what else would you have them [hamas] do What about caring for their civilians, not using them as meat shields, not using hospitals as bases, not starting rockets from civilian buildings; using the obscene amount of international aid responsible for the benefit of people, over selling it for profit in their supermarkets to fund rockets, digging up goddamn water pipes to turn into rockets, etc. Oh, also, maybe don’t shoot their own people trying to evacuate an active warzone? Hamas is an utterly disgusting terrorist organization, this is an objective fact. Equating them to freedom fighters is just vile, and a disgrace to any decent movement that tried to overthrow their oppressors.
  - zone411 3y ago
    Their clients and partners include The World Bank, UN, Save the Children, European Commission, USAID, CARE International (https://www.awrad.org/en/article/10467/Partners--Clients-2015 https://www.awrad.org/en/article/10467/Partners--Clients-201...) and their polling dates back to at least 2007: https://www.awrad.org/files/server/analysis.pdf https://www.awrad.org/files/server/analysis.pdf But if you don't believe these numbers, here is one from the Washington Institute in July 2023: "Overall, 57% of Gazans express at least a somewhat positive opinion of Hamas" "But it is organizations like Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) and Lion’s Den that receive the most widespread popular support in Gaza. About three quarters of Gazans express support for both groups, including 40% who see the Lion’s Den in a “very positive” light, an attitude shared by a similar percentage of West Bank residents." https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/polls-show-majority-gazans-were-against-breaking-ceasefire-hamas-and-hezbollah https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/polls-sh...
    - bjourne 3y ago
      > Their clients and partners include The World Bank, You are speaking to the startup crowd. Anyone can put anyone's logotypes on their website and claim they are your partners. It's not even that hard. Mind your sources folks.
- gryzzly 3y ago
  a standard situation where the leaders of a public are dictators and control education and media access, similar to russians’ support of their own terrorist leaders
underdeserver 3y ago
At least on the Israeli side, this is wrong. An enormous majority of people are convinced that the war is justified. 1200 dead; that would be the equivalent of 40,000 Americans. 240 kidnapped, with 137 still there. Hamas have proven their capabilities and determination. And then they say[1] that they intend to do it again. When someone tells you that they want you annihilated, and intend to attack you, believe them. [1] https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-official-ghazi-hamad-we-will-repeat-october-seven-until-israel-annihilated-victims-everything-we-do-justified https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-official-ghazi-hamad-we-will-...
- aldeluis 3y ago
  Of course they're convinced. They had their 11S to convince them of attacking a dense city full of people. The fifth military budget in the world by GDP wasn't able to detect a breach in a hyper secured wall with 24/7 cameras and reacted several hours later killing a lot of his own people. We need to carefully review and research the facts because this seems a reverse false flag event. A desired event for zionists in order to justify carpet-bombing a city to kill, displace and clear the zone for future settlers.
  - underdeserver 3y ago
    If you think jews "desire" to be slaughtered I have nothing to say to you.
- ToucanLoucan 3y ago
  Even assuming that's true and 100% accurate: shitloads of Americans after we watched three thousand people die on television were convinced that the best course of action was to "liberate" Afghanistan and Iraq, yet another set of quagmire armed conflicts that accomplished exactly nothing apart from destabilizing one state, destroying another, getting tens of thousands of American service people killed, and hundreds of thousands if not millions of Arab civilians killed, not to mention the incalculable damage to the economic prospects of two large middle eastern countries, the damage to their cultures, the damage to America in particular and the West in general's perception on the global stage, and the not only NOT VANQUISHED but in fact FRESHLY RE-ARMED Taliban! The fucking people we supposedly went there to eliminate in the first damn place, are now cruising around in American Humvees and capturing our assets that were left behind after the pull out. And we DIDN'T EVEN GET BIN LADEN THERE. We captured him years after entering the region, in PAKISTAN, a FRIENDLY state, with a single company of marines. No invasion required, no massive civilian casualties, and to my knowledge, we didn't give any terrorist groups a fresh fleet of well maintained vehicles either during that particular one. Like, at this point, if you still believe that the answer to these terrorist organizations is force, then you really need to bring some evidence to the table, because every time we go to places we are not wanted, and inflict our will upon people who do not want us there with fire and fury, we leave a decade later with an entire city's worth of PTSD afflicted soldiers, leaving behind billions of dollars in military assets, and accomplishing exactly nothing but giving the war profiteering class a fresh infusion of cash.

zone411 3y ago

> have a wide and diverse set of opinions about Hamas 75% of Palestinians "support the military operation carried out by the Palestinian resistance led by Hamas on October 7th." 76% have positive views of Hamas (other armed terrorist groups have even larger support). https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20Opinion%20Poll%20-%20Gaza%20War%202023%20-%20Tables%20of%20Results.pdf https://www.awrad.org/files/server/polls/polls2023/Public%20...

bjourne 3y ago
I really wish people would stop citing pollsters with no pedigree. What is the Arab World for Research & Development? Who is funding them? Who is conducting their polls? Who staffs them? Are their results reliable?
- runarberg 3y ago
  Even if these numbers are true, you have to look at them within the lens of colonial warfare. How many black South African supported the ANC against the Apartheid regime? How many Kenyans supported the Mau Mau against the British imperial army? How many Vietnamese supported the Viet Cong against the American army? Today these are considered liberators, but during the colonial wars they were all considered terrorists who conducted inhumane acts. Perhaps people knew that but still supported their fight, simply because they considered the oppression inflected by their colonizers worth fighting against.
  - pxc 3y ago
    And also the context of the ineffectiveness and corruption of collaborationist governing parties like Fatah.
  - ToucanLoucan 3y ago
    This times a thousand. None of this can possibly be understood even remotely well without the broader context of settler colonialism that persists to this day, as Israeli settlers continue colonizing land that is not theirs even now, today. The amazing amount of historical revisionism where once it became so obvious and irrefutable that the causes of these various entities were, in fact, correct the entire time at which point colonial powers suddenly do an about face and call them freedom fighters instead of terrorists in genuinely nauseating. ALL groups in this vein commit various kinds of atrocities, because war, especially guerilla war, is itself largely an atrocity. And more war will only breed more of these groups as more people who do not belong in an area, do not share it's culture, and blatantly do not give a steaming shit about either of those things continue to meddle in their affairs. Hamas will not do open battle with Israel, because of course they'd fucking lose, just like the Taliban would've to us, or the Viet Cong to us, or anyone else. They can't field an army and they know that, they aren't stupid. But what else would you have them do? Just waive the white flag and let the Western powers redraw their borders again, fuck up their cities and culture and treat them like brainless savages to avoid being killed?
    - kaba0 3y ago
      > But what else would you have them [hamas] do What about caring for their civilians, not using them as meat shields, not using hospitals as bases, not starting rockets from civilian buildings; using the obscene amount of international aid responsible for the benefit of people, over selling it for profit in their supermarkets to fund rockets, digging up goddamn water pipes to turn into rockets, etc. Oh, also, maybe don’t shoot their own people trying to evacuate an active warzone? Hamas is an utterly disgusting terrorist organization, this is an objective fact. Equating them to freedom fighters is just vile, and a disgrace to any decent movement that tried to overthrow their oppressors.
- zone411 3y ago
  Their clients and partners include The World Bank, UN, Save the Children, European Commission, USAID, CARE International (https://www.awrad.org/en/article/10467/Partners--Clients-2015 https://www.awrad.org/en/article/10467/Partners--Clients-201...) and their polling dates back to at least 2007: https://www.awrad.org/files/server/analysis.pdf https://www.awrad.org/files/server/analysis.pdf But if you don't believe these numbers, here is one from the Washington Institute in July 2023: "Overall, 57% of Gazans express at least a somewhat positive opinion of Hamas" "But it is organizations like Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) and Lion’s Den that receive the most widespread popular support in Gaza. About three quarters of Gazans express support for both groups, including 40% who see the Lion’s Den in a “very positive” light, an attitude shared by a similar percentage of West Bank residents." https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/polls-show-majority-gazans-were-against-breaking-ceasefire-hamas-and-hezbollah https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/polls-sh...
  - bjourne 3y ago
    > Their clients and partners include The World Bank, You are speaking to the startup crowd. Anyone can put anyone's logotypes on their website and claim they are your partners. It's not even that hard. Mind your sources folks.
gryzzly 3y ago
a standard situation where the leaders of a public are dictators and control education and media access, similar to russians’ support of their own terrorist leaders

underdeserver 3y ago

At least on the Israeli side, this is wrong. An enormous majority of people are convinced that the war is justified. 1200 dead; that would be the equivalent of 40,000 Americans. 240 kidnapped, with 137 still there. Hamas have proven their capabilities and determination. And then they say[1] that they intend to do it again. When someone tells you that they want you annihilated, and intend to attack you, believe them. [1] https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-official-ghazi-hamad-we-will-repeat-october-seven-until-israel-annihilated-victims-everything-we-do-justified https://www.memri.org/tv/hamas-official-ghazi-hamad-we-will-...

aldeluis 3y ago
Of course they're convinced. They had their 11S to convince them of attacking a dense city full of people. The fifth military budget in the world by GDP wasn't able to detect a breach in a hyper secured wall with 24/7 cameras and reacted several hours later killing a lot of his own people. We need to carefully review and research the facts because this seems a reverse false flag event. A desired event for zionists in order to justify carpet-bombing a city to kill, displace and clear the zone for future settlers.
- underdeserver 3y ago
  If you think jews "desire" to be slaughtered I have nothing to say to you.
ToucanLoucan 3y ago
Even assuming that's true and 100% accurate: shitloads of Americans after we watched three thousand people die on television were convinced that the best course of action was to "liberate" Afghanistan and Iraq, yet another set of quagmire armed conflicts that accomplished exactly nothing apart from destabilizing one state, destroying another, getting tens of thousands of American service people killed, and hundreds of thousands if not millions of Arab civilians killed, not to mention the incalculable damage to the economic prospects of two large middle eastern countries, the damage to their cultures, the damage to America in particular and the West in general's perception on the global stage, and the not only NOT VANQUISHED but in fact FRESHLY RE-ARMED Taliban! The fucking people we supposedly went there to eliminate in the first damn place, are now cruising around in American Humvees and capturing our assets that were left behind after the pull out. And we DIDN'T EVEN GET BIN LADEN THERE. We captured him years after entering the region, in PAKISTAN, a FRIENDLY state, with a single company of marines. No invasion required, no massive civilian casualties, and to my knowledge, we didn't give any terrorist groups a fresh fleet of well maintained vehicles either during that particular one. Like, at this point, if you still believe that the answer to these terrorist organizations is force, then you really need to bring some evidence to the table, because every time we go to places we are not wanted, and inflict our will upon people who do not want us there with fire and fury, we leave a decade later with an entire city's worth of PTSD afflicted soldiers, leaving behind billions of dollars in military assets, and accomplishing exactly nothing but giving the war profiteering class a fresh infusion of cash.