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Right now, there is nowhere else in the world where so many civilians are being killed. Nothing else even comes close. 20k deaths in just two months is a massiv

Right now, there is nowhere else in the world where so many civilians are being killed. Nothing else even comes close. 20k deaths in just two months is a massive death toll for such a short conflict. For comparison, it's more than the civilian death toll in the nearly 2-year-old war in Ukraine. The other thing is that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has been going on for decades, and many people have formed strong opinions on it. The United States is deeply involved in the conflict, as it is Israel's major international backer. There are both Palestinian and Jewish diasporas all around the world that care deeply about the issue. There are many reasons why this conflict captures so many people's attention.

bushbaba 3y ago
20k deaths includes Hamas militants. So far the militant to civilian casualty ratio is actually lower than most other modern urban conflicts. Some being as high as 10 civilians for every 1 militant death.
- squidbeak 3y ago
  Where does your militant data come from? And does it differentiate between fighters active before the invasion and those after? Because large numbers of formerly peaceful men will now be engaged in the fight, either from grief at losing their families, or the natural instinct to resist an invader.
  - rendall 3y ago
    It comes from the Gaza Ministry of Health, which is Hamas. They assert that no one at all who has died in Gaza whatsoever was in the military. All civilians.
  - sillystuff 3y ago
    Israel is claiming that any male is a combatant. But, even if you accept such an insane definition of combatant, the majority of the casualties have been women and children. The GP is just spreading falsehoods to justify genocide. There is a huge ops campaign by Israel and pro-Zionist organizations within the US. They are doxing, getting people fired, anything to scare people into self-censoring their critiques of Israeli genocide of Palestinian civilians. There are no doubt some useful idiots parroting Zionist propaganda, and also Zionists themselves spreading it in this discussion forum. But, no serious person can believe that over 10,000 women and children (including literal babies in incubators) murdered by Israel in this latest of many massacres, are "combatants". (the US also used such a definition in Afghanistan to fake its civilian casualty numbers-- any male that appears 14yrs old and over was the American's definition of "combatant")
yyyk 3y ago
That's just untrue. Sudan, Yemen and (earlier) Ethiopia had much much more, without even going into Ukraine (nobody should accept the Russian figures) or Syria (death toll exceeding all Israeli-Arab wars combined). Doing a death toll per month analysis is misleading because high intensity can't last very long due to geography alone.
- bjourne 3y ago
  No, it's true. Roughly 1% of Gaza's pre-war population has already been killed by Israel. 81% has been displaced and over 60% of all buildings have been damaged or destroyed. The amount of destruction Russia was brought upon Ukraine doesn't even come close.
  - yyyk 3y ago
    Buildings and temporary displacement inside the Strip aren't interesting - some Gulf states will cover reconstruction, and the royal houses will have a few less yachts. Ukraine lost a double-digit % of its population when you include permanent displacement (these refugees will not return), and its civilian casualties are absurdly underestimated (yea, Mariupol had 1K, right - when the Russians bombed places with the writing 'children' on them). Syria had an official 500K - only because they stopped counting - and millions of refugees. These are literally on another scale by both time and damage, without even going into Sudan/Yemen which are on a scale of their own.
    - bjourne 3y ago
      > Buildings and temporary displacement inside the Strip aren't interesting - some Gulf states will cover reconstruction, and the royal houses will have a few less yachts. Well, the only way to claim something absolutely idiotic like that is to have absolutely no clue: During the fifty days of Operation Protective Edge in the summer of 2014, Israel bombed and shelled the Gaza Strip, causing massive damage to civilian infrastructure and homes. About 18,000 residential units were either completely destroyed or heavily damaged, leaving more than 100,000 Palestinians – some 17,000 families – homeless. [...] Today, more than four years later, about 20% of the homes are still unusable and some 2,300 families – about 13,000 people – remain homeless. Some 1,600 of these families had been receiving rent subsidies from UNRWA at rates ranging from 200 to 250 USD per month, depending on the size of the family. In July 2018, however, following US funding cuts, UNRWA was forced to halt financial assistance, leaving families out in the cold. Families that are still renting are having trouble making payments. https://www.btselem.org/gaza_strip/20190303_13000_gazans_homelsess_since_2014_war https://www.btselem.org/gaza_strip/20190303_13000_gazans_hom... The Gulf states you think are generous have changed their allegiances and are now Israel's friends. The current Israeli government has radicalized even further since 2014 and revel in the suffering of Palestinians and will likely prevent any future reconstruction efforts. The number of refugees from Ukraine is 6.3 million or 14% with up to 30% of its infrastructure damaged. This is less destruction in TWO YEARS than Israel has inflicted in 60 DAYS. https://data.unhcr.org/en/situations/ukraine https://data.unhcr.org/en/situations/ukraine https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/exclusive-russian-invasion-damaged-up-30-ukraines-infrastructure-says-minister-2022-04-18/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/exclusive-russian-invas...
bitcurious 3y ago
> 20k deaths in just two months is a massive death toll for such a short conflict. This is the number provided by Hamas. Per Israel, 15k people have been killed, approximately 10k of whom are civilians. > For comparison, it's more than the civilian death toll in the nearly 2-year-old war in Ukraine. This is according to numbers sourced from Russians. According to Ukrainians, >20k civilians died in Mariupol’ alone (a city 1/5th the size of Gaza).
- catlover76 3y ago
  > Per Israel, 15k people have been killed, approximately 10k of whom are civilians. Oh much better! If true, seems perfectly justified and A-ok!
  - kaba0 3y ago
    Every civilian life’s loss is tragic, but this is a normal ratio in comparable wars, especially given the very densely populated urban setting.

bushbaba 3y ago

20k deaths includes Hamas militants. So far the militant to civilian casualty ratio is actually lower than most other modern urban conflicts. Some being as high as 10 civilians for every 1 militant death.

squidbeak 3y ago
Where does your militant data come from? And does it differentiate between fighters active before the invasion and those after? Because large numbers of formerly peaceful men will now be engaged in the fight, either from grief at losing their families, or the natural instinct to resist an invader.
- rendall 3y ago
  It comes from the Gaza Ministry of Health, which is Hamas. They assert that no one at all who has died in Gaza whatsoever was in the military. All civilians.
- sillystuff 3y ago
  Israel is claiming that any male is a combatant. But, even if you accept such an insane definition of combatant, the majority of the casualties have been women and children. The GP is just spreading falsehoods to justify genocide. There is a huge ops campaign by Israel and pro-Zionist organizations within the US. They are doxing, getting people fired, anything to scare people into self-censoring their critiques of Israeli genocide of Palestinian civilians. There are no doubt some useful idiots parroting Zionist propaganda, and also Zionists themselves spreading it in this discussion forum. But, no serious person can believe that over 10,000 women and children (including literal babies in incubators) murdered by Israel in this latest of many massacres, are "combatants". (the US also used such a definition in Afghanistan to fake its civilian casualty numbers-- any male that appears 14yrs old and over was the American's definition of "combatant")

yyyk 3y ago

That's just untrue. Sudan, Yemen and (earlier) Ethiopia had much much more, without even going into Ukraine (nobody should accept the Russian figures) or Syria (death toll exceeding all Israeli-Arab wars combined). Doing a death toll per month analysis is misleading because high intensity can't last very long due to geography alone.

bjourne 3y ago
No, it's true. Roughly 1% of Gaza's pre-war population has already been killed by Israel. 81% has been displaced and over 60% of all buildings have been damaged or destroyed. The amount of destruction Russia was brought upon Ukraine doesn't even come close.
- yyyk 3y ago
  Buildings and temporary displacement inside the Strip aren't interesting - some Gulf states will cover reconstruction, and the royal houses will have a few less yachts. Ukraine lost a double-digit % of its population when you include permanent displacement (these refugees will not return), and its civilian casualties are absurdly underestimated (yea, Mariupol had 1K, right - when the Russians bombed places with the writing 'children' on them). Syria had an official 500K - only because they stopped counting - and millions of refugees. These are literally on another scale by both time and damage, without even going into Sudan/Yemen which are on a scale of their own.
  - bjourne 3y ago
    > Buildings and temporary displacement inside the Strip aren't interesting - some Gulf states will cover reconstruction, and the royal houses will have a few less yachts. Well, the only way to claim something absolutely idiotic like that is to have absolutely no clue: During the fifty days of Operation Protective Edge in the summer of 2014, Israel bombed and shelled the Gaza Strip, causing massive damage to civilian infrastructure and homes. About 18,000 residential units were either completely destroyed or heavily damaged, leaving more than 100,000 Palestinians – some 17,000 families – homeless. [...] Today, more than four years later, about 20% of the homes are still unusable and some 2,300 families – about 13,000 people – remain homeless. Some 1,600 of these families had been receiving rent subsidies from UNRWA at rates ranging from 200 to 250 USD per month, depending on the size of the family. In July 2018, however, following US funding cuts, UNRWA was forced to halt financial assistance, leaving families out in the cold. Families that are still renting are having trouble making payments. https://www.btselem.org/gaza_strip/20190303_13000_gazans_homelsess_since_2014_war https://www.btselem.org/gaza_strip/20190303_13000_gazans_hom... The Gulf states you think are generous have changed their allegiances and are now Israel's friends. The current Israeli government has radicalized even further since 2014 and revel in the suffering of Palestinians and will likely prevent any future reconstruction efforts. The number of refugees from Ukraine is 6.3 million or 14% with up to 30% of its infrastructure damaged. This is less destruction in TWO YEARS than Israel has inflicted in 60 DAYS. https://data.unhcr.org/en/situations/ukraine https://data.unhcr.org/en/situations/ukraine https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/exclusive-russian-invasion-damaged-up-30-ukraines-infrastructure-says-minister-2022-04-18/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/exclusive-russian-invas...

bitcurious 3y ago

> 20k deaths in just two months is a massive death toll for such a short conflict. This is the number provided by Hamas. Per Israel, 15k people have been killed, approximately 10k of whom are civilians. > For comparison, it's more than the civilian death toll in the nearly 2-year-old war in Ukraine. This is according to numbers sourced from Russians. According to Ukrainians, >20k civilians died in Mariupol’ alone (a city 1/5th the size of Gaza).

catlover76 3y ago
> Per Israel, 15k people have been killed, approximately 10k of whom are civilians. Oh much better! If true, seems perfectly justified and A-ok!
- kaba0 3y ago
  Every civilian life’s loss is tragic, but this is a normal ratio in comparable wars, especially given the very densely populated urban setting.