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Sam Altman was toxic, but also, 90% of OpenAI employees joined the counter-coup. Doesn't really add up. That this article is written by Nitasha Tiku, a Gawker

Sam Altman was toxic, but also, 90% of OpenAI employees joined the counter-coup. Doesn't really add up. That this article is written by Nitasha Tiku, a Gawker alum, casts even further doubt on its claims.

summerlight 3y ago
I'm pretty much sure that Tesla employees will revolt if its board tries to oust Elon. That doesn't necessarily mean that Elon is not a toxic leader.
- Sohcahtoa82 3y ago
  IMO, ousting Elon would be the best thing Tesla could do for the future of the company. The problem is that stock traders hate uncertainty, and ousting the CEO of any company brings massive uncertainty. So in the short term, an ousting of Elon would probably tank the stock.
  - ElijahLynn 3y ago
    I'm not a fan of some of the things Elon has done recently, like really not a fan, bigly, but I also know I don't have to love the whole person to really appreciate some things that person has done. And Tesla wouldn't be Tesla without Elon, it wouldn't be nearly as innovative. There definitely wouldn't be a Tesla Semi that is going to change the trucking industry, there wouldn't be a Cybertruck that is going to change the farm truck industry. EVs wouldn't be nearly as far along as they are now. I suppose ousting Elon would keep Tesla where it is now, but that is like ousting Jobs from Apple. Elon has many great ideas and he delivers. I don't have to agree with his personal politics to really appreciate what Elon has done for humanity. He is one persistent person, and he gets things done. I mean, how many people have internet access now that didn't before due to Starlink. It wasn't just him obviously, it was a very large team of people. But he somehow got those people to believe in the mission. And THEY delivered. And I don't think we would be where we would be today with renewable energy and electric vehicles if it wasn't for his contributions. Again, we don't have to like the whole person to appreciate their contributions. None of us are perfect, and some of us say highly offensive things in public hat can feel very threatening and may actually be threatening to some. I think Elon's public statements sometimes are taken even more seriously because some/many of us idolized Elon (myself included) for a while. And there was this big reveal of like "oh, I don't like that part of you", "what you said was insensitive and mean". And then this tendency to "throw the baby out with the bathwater" and overlook everything great that he has done. It is a complicated thing for sure.
    - Sohcahtoa82 3y ago
      > There definitely wouldn't be a Tesla Semi that is going to change the trucking industry Pure delusion. The Tesla semi might be alright for intra-city deliveries, but it's a god-awful idea for long haul trucking. Tractors rarely sit idle long enough to charge. They'll drop off a trailer at one dock, then immediately pick up a trailer from another dock and get back on the road. Also, talk to any trucker about the semi and it'll be clear they didn't actually talk to any truckers in their design. They've got a whole list of complaints. > there wouldn't be a Cybertruck that is going to change the farm truck industry. You're joking, right? Like, this gotta be a troll post. > Elon has many great ideas and he delivers. He delivers 3-5 years behind schedule. Roadster was announced in 2017 for 2020. It's 2023 and Elon and Tesla are completely silent about it. They also announced the ATV, and I doubt that'll ever actually happen. Don't get me started on FSD, which has been 6 months away for nearly 10 years.
- tempestn 3y ago
  I doubt that. I think Tesla the business would be better off without him. That said, the stock is ludicrously overvalued, which must be largely due to his cult of personality. So if employees are concerned about their options being devalued in the short term, I could at least see the possibility. On the other side, I'm sure Tesla employees lean left, so I doubt most are fans of Elon. I'm not sure the financial motive alone would be enough to engender this sort of reaction.
jazzyjackson 3y ago
I don't really have a dog in this fight but in case of a cult of personality, "toxic" and "loyal followers" are not contradictory.
- nomel 3y ago
  The word "toxic" has lost all meaning these days. It would be interesting to see some actual examples. I've worked with people, in the past, who would be considered "toxic" by today's standards. For example, they were disagreeable, pointing out when time was being wasted on tangents, demanding data to back up claims, and all those other nasty things that help keep a team truthful and on track. They were great to work for, if you could stomach criticism and directness, which seems to be getting rare.
  - mdhb 3y ago
    I mean his own sister is claiming he did a lot of really vile shit to her when she was a child. The idea that this person might also be genuinely “toxic” is hardly a stretch. https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/QDczBduZorG4dxZiW/sam-altman-s-sister-annie-altman-claims-sam-has-severely https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/QDczBduZorG4dxZiW/sam-altman...
    - not_really 3y ago
      she seems stable
      - mdhb 3y ago
        Getting sexually assaulted as a small child by a family member would probably do that I imagine.
dmix 3y ago
Everyone is reading so much into this, when it sounds like a personal conflict between Helen and Sam that blew up and turned into a board coup by Helen, packed with vague justifications no one bought because they weren't given any reason to believe them. Why would the employees buy the coup leaders pitch when they barely explained why it happened in the first place? The story of the next day's morning meeting was everyone was unsasitfied for the reasons they were given, they were as confused as everyone else, and then the next story is the employees all signing a letter and Ilya doing a 180. Why would the employees immediately trust the new leadership by a board member not involved in day to day operations? I doubt it's all just about making more $$ under Sam. It's about trust and stability. Everyone was talking about how it was about AI saftey vs reckless capitalism but tangibly we still have little evidence of that. What we do have is Sam critiquing Helen's paper, then suddenly half the board is moving against Sam and an interim CEO whose slow-AI-dev views on AI, which are 100% in line with Helen's paper, is replacing him. While the conviction of the other board members like Ilya seemed pretty thin.
- baking 3y ago
  Sam tried to remove Helen from the board which would effectively give him control over the board with the two people who worked for him holding seats. He was the one that tried to upset the board-CEO balance.
himaraya 3y ago
Tiku edited for Valleywag 2013-14 then left. I wouldn't blindly discredit her reporting barring specific complaints.
bart_spoon 3y ago
Altman’s departure represented a real possibility they may miss out of enormous amounts of wealth. People are willing to put up with or even support a lot of things when money is on the line.

summerlight 3y ago

I'm pretty much sure that Tesla employees will revolt if its board tries to oust Elon. That doesn't necessarily mean that Elon is not a toxic leader.

Sohcahtoa82 3y ago
IMO, ousting Elon would be the best thing Tesla could do for the future of the company. The problem is that stock traders hate uncertainty, and ousting the CEO of any company brings massive uncertainty. So in the short term, an ousting of Elon would probably tank the stock.
- ElijahLynn 3y ago
  I'm not a fan of some of the things Elon has done recently, like really not a fan, bigly, but I also know I don't have to love the whole person to really appreciate some things that person has done. And Tesla wouldn't be Tesla without Elon, it wouldn't be nearly as innovative. There definitely wouldn't be a Tesla Semi that is going to change the trucking industry, there wouldn't be a Cybertruck that is going to change the farm truck industry. EVs wouldn't be nearly as far along as they are now. I suppose ousting Elon would keep Tesla where it is now, but that is like ousting Jobs from Apple. Elon has many great ideas and he delivers. I don't have to agree with his personal politics to really appreciate what Elon has done for humanity. He is one persistent person, and he gets things done. I mean, how many people have internet access now that didn't before due to Starlink. It wasn't just him obviously, it was a very large team of people. But he somehow got those people to believe in the mission. And THEY delivered. And I don't think we would be where we would be today with renewable energy and electric vehicles if it wasn't for his contributions. Again, we don't have to like the whole person to appreciate their contributions. None of us are perfect, and some of us say highly offensive things in public hat can feel very threatening and may actually be threatening to some. I think Elon's public statements sometimes are taken even more seriously because some/many of us idolized Elon (myself included) for a while. And there was this big reveal of like "oh, I don't like that part of you", "what you said was insensitive and mean". And then this tendency to "throw the baby out with the bathwater" and overlook everything great that he has done. It is a complicated thing for sure.
  - Sohcahtoa82 3y ago
    > There definitely wouldn't be a Tesla Semi that is going to change the trucking industry Pure delusion. The Tesla semi might be alright for intra-city deliveries, but it's a god-awful idea for long haul trucking. Tractors rarely sit idle long enough to charge. They'll drop off a trailer at one dock, then immediately pick up a trailer from another dock and get back on the road. Also, talk to any trucker about the semi and it'll be clear they didn't actually talk to any truckers in their design. They've got a whole list of complaints. > there wouldn't be a Cybertruck that is going to change the farm truck industry. You're joking, right? Like, this gotta be a troll post. > Elon has many great ideas and he delivers. He delivers 3-5 years behind schedule. Roadster was announced in 2017 for 2020. It's 2023 and Elon and Tesla are completely silent about it. They also announced the ATV, and I doubt that'll ever actually happen. Don't get me started on FSD, which has been 6 months away for nearly 10 years.
tempestn 3y ago
I doubt that. I think Tesla the business would be better off without him. That said, the stock is ludicrously overvalued, which must be largely due to his cult of personality. So if employees are concerned about their options being devalued in the short term, I could at least see the possibility. On the other side, I'm sure Tesla employees lean left, so I doubt most are fans of Elon. I'm not sure the financial motive alone would be enough to engender this sort of reaction.

jazzyjackson 3y ago

I don't really have a dog in this fight but in case of a cult of personality, "toxic" and "loyal followers" are not contradictory.

nomel 3y ago
The word "toxic" has lost all meaning these days. It would be interesting to see some actual examples. I've worked with people, in the past, who would be considered "toxic" by today's standards. For example, they were disagreeable, pointing out when time was being wasted on tangents, demanding data to back up claims, and all those other nasty things that help keep a team truthful and on track. They were great to work for, if you could stomach criticism and directness, which seems to be getting rare.
- mdhb 3y ago
  I mean his own sister is claiming he did a lot of really vile shit to her when she was a child. The idea that this person might also be genuinely “toxic” is hardly a stretch. https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/QDczBduZorG4dxZiW/sam-altman-s-sister-annie-altman-claims-sam-has-severely https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/QDczBduZorG4dxZiW/sam-altman...
  - not_really 3y ago
    she seems stable
    - mdhb 3y ago
      Getting sexually assaulted as a small child by a family member would probably do that I imagine.

dmix 3y ago

Everyone is reading so much into this, when it sounds like a personal conflict between Helen and Sam that blew up and turned into a board coup by Helen, packed with vague justifications no one bought because they weren't given any reason to believe them. Why would the employees buy the coup leaders pitch when they barely explained why it happened in the first place? The story of the next day's morning meeting was everyone was unsasitfied for the reasons they were given, they were as confused as everyone else, and then the next story is the employees all signing a letter and Ilya doing a 180. Why would the employees immediately trust the new leadership by a board member not involved in day to day operations? I doubt it's all just about making more $$ under Sam. It's about trust and stability. Everyone was talking about how it was about AI saftey vs reckless capitalism but tangibly we still have little evidence of that. What we do have is Sam critiquing Helen's paper, then suddenly half the board is moving against Sam and an interim CEO whose slow-AI-dev views on AI, which are 100% in line with Helen's paper, is replacing him. While the conviction of the other board members like Ilya seemed pretty thin.

baking 3y ago
Sam tried to remove Helen from the board which would effectively give him control over the board with the two people who worked for him holding seats. He was the one that tried to upset the board-CEO balance.

himaraya 3y ago

Tiku edited for Valleywag 2013-14 then left. I wouldn't blindly discredit her reporting barring specific complaints.

bart_spoon 3y ago

Altman’s departure represented a real possibility they may miss out of enormous amounts of wealth. People are willing to put up with or even support a lot of things when money is on the line.