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> The videos of destruction and death in Gaza are far more horrific than corresponding videos in Israel Maybe you haven't seen enough of what happened in 10/7

by proc0 3y ago

> The videos of destruction and death in Gaza are far more horrific than corresponding videos in Israel Maybe you haven't seen enough of what happened in 10/7 then. I would rather get hit by a bomb then tortured to death in the most horrific way possible.

digging 3y ago
Would you rather get tortured to death horrifically or have your closest 200 relatives crushed to death in the rubble of everything they own? If we're comparing experiences, this might be a more typical choice.
- proc0 3y ago
  That's pivoting from the experience of one person to comparing deaths in numbers. If we talk about the ratio we'll then need to include a bunch of other factors to explain it because it's not as simple as comparing experiences at the individual's level.
  - digging 3y ago
    No, it's not. Having one's family exterminated is also a personal experience. This has happened to actual living Palestinians. Perhaps it's difficult to believe, which is why I thought it was an important experience to include.
bjourne 3y ago
As of right now there are likely hundreds or thousands of Palestinians trapped under the rubble of their houses slowly suffocating or dying of dehydration. A process that takes days or weeks.
- proc0 3y ago
  Nobody said that about the Germans during WW2, so I guess the disagreement is how bad the Hamas guys are. And also we can't let them prove themselves to be as bad as the Nazis (if we start comparing numbers), it's about preventing it.
  - lazyasciiart 3y ago
    Nobody said what?
    - proc0 3y ago
      That the Allies shouldn't attack Germany because there would be too many civilian casualties. Same with Japan.
      - zarzavat 3y ago
        Oh no. The lesson from the Second World War was that it must not repeated. It is not supposed to be used as a justification for committing war crimes against civilians.
      - lazyasciiart 3y ago
        Hmm. I believe some people did, and specifically the incident that most comes to mind as analogous to what’s happening in Gaza is the bombing of Dresden and that of Hiroshima, which many many people said should not have been done.
wazoox 3y ago
Even when dug out at some point, following a long and painful agony people crushed under collapsed buildings almost always die. Particularly in Gaza where medical supplies are now non-existent. Lots of innocents are dying; there is IMO absolutely no amount of reasoning that can justify it, under any circumstances. It's just wrong. It must stop, period.
- proc0 3y ago
  Yeah, that's pretty bad, but it lacks the terror and the brutality. Many people survive accidents of that magnitude and recover sooner or later. I cannot imagine being taken hostage, seeing your family members tortured and killed in front of you and dehumanized. I don't think anyone comes back from that.
  - g8oz 3y ago
    You obviously have not seen the videos of incinerated children in Gaza.
- kaba0 3y ago
  > there is IMO absolutely no amount of reasoning that can justify it Unfortunately, I don’t see any other way. But I would be very happy to know of any that will eradicate hamas, and let both sides’ civilians finally live in peace.
  - digging 3y ago
    That's why Netanyahu has been funding and encouraging Hamas for decades. Now he has a perfect excuse to massacre Palestinians, because he has to bomb Hamas. The alternative, impossible, unthinkable, would be treating Palestinians with dignity and humanity, allowing them to live and flourish in their homeland, and giving them no reason to support Hamas. Netanyahu knows exactly what he's doing and has been doing and what we're seeing right now is his goal. He wants Palestinians gone.
  - wazoox 3y ago
    You're taking it backward. You must not kill children. Everything else flows from this point. If your "solution" implies to kill children, it's not a solution, it's not defensible, it's not to be debated. Period. Else you're just as bad (or worse) as the other side. If you're not a fascistic fanatic (like the other side), then don't call for murder and crime (like the other side). Simple, uh? In war there can be no justice. Now consider what is more just: not killing perpetrators, or killing innocents? Obviously, not killing is preferable. As Socrates said 2400 years ago, it's worse to commit injustice than to suffer it. If you want an intelligent commentary on the current situation, please listen to Yuval Noah Harari on Sam Harris' podcast about this.
xster 3y ago
Can you show us some first-hand sources of what exactly did happen in 10/7? If not suitable for TikTok (though gore and violence upon Palestinians are readily visible), there must be available somewhere on PeerTube or blockchain platforms.
- rendall 3y ago
  Here is a telegram channel. I know there are others. I can't really stomach it. https://t.me/OctoberSeventh https://t.me/OctoberSeventh

by proc0 3y ago

digging 3y ago

Would you rather get tortured to death horrifically or have your closest 200 relatives crushed to death in the rubble of everything they own? If we're comparing experiences, this might be a more typical choice.

proc0 3y ago
That's pivoting from the experience of one person to comparing deaths in numbers. If we talk about the ratio we'll then need to include a bunch of other factors to explain it because it's not as simple as comparing experiences at the individual's level.
- digging 3y ago
  No, it's not. Having one's family exterminated is also a personal experience. This has happened to actual living Palestinians. Perhaps it's difficult to believe, which is why I thought it was an important experience to include.

bjourne 3y ago

As of right now there are likely hundreds or thousands of Palestinians trapped under the rubble of their houses slowly suffocating or dying of dehydration. A process that takes days or weeks.

proc0 3y ago
Nobody said that about the Germans during WW2, so I guess the disagreement is how bad the Hamas guys are. And also we can't let them prove themselves to be as bad as the Nazis (if we start comparing numbers), it's about preventing it.
- lazyasciiart 3y ago
  Nobody said what?
  - proc0 3y ago
    That the Allies shouldn't attack Germany because there would be too many civilian casualties. Same with Japan.
    - zarzavat 3y ago
      Oh no. The lesson from the Second World War was that it must not repeated. It is not supposed to be used as a justification for committing war crimes against civilians.
    - lazyasciiart 3y ago
      Hmm. I believe some people did, and specifically the incident that most comes to mind as analogous to what’s happening in Gaza is the bombing of Dresden and that of Hiroshima, which many many people said should not have been done.

wazoox 3y ago

Even when dug out at some point, following a long and painful agony people crushed under collapsed buildings almost always die. Particularly in Gaza where medical supplies are now non-existent. Lots of innocents are dying; there is IMO absolutely no amount of reasoning that can justify it, under any circumstances. It's just wrong. It must stop, period.

proc0 3y ago
Yeah, that's pretty bad, but it lacks the terror and the brutality. Many people survive accidents of that magnitude and recover sooner or later. I cannot imagine being taken hostage, seeing your family members tortured and killed in front of you and dehumanized. I don't think anyone comes back from that.
- g8oz 3y ago
  You obviously have not seen the videos of incinerated children in Gaza.
kaba0 3y ago
> there is IMO absolutely no amount of reasoning that can justify it Unfortunately, I don’t see any other way. But I would be very happy to know of any that will eradicate hamas, and let both sides’ civilians finally live in peace.
- digging 3y ago
  That's why Netanyahu has been funding and encouraging Hamas for decades. Now he has a perfect excuse to massacre Palestinians, because he has to bomb Hamas. The alternative, impossible, unthinkable, would be treating Palestinians with dignity and humanity, allowing them to live and flourish in their homeland, and giving them no reason to support Hamas. Netanyahu knows exactly what he's doing and has been doing and what we're seeing right now is his goal. He wants Palestinians gone.
- wazoox 3y ago
  You're taking it backward. You must not kill children. Everything else flows from this point. If your "solution" implies to kill children, it's not a solution, it's not defensible, it's not to be debated. Period. Else you're just as bad (or worse) as the other side. If you're not a fascistic fanatic (like the other side), then don't call for murder and crime (like the other side). Simple, uh? In war there can be no justice. Now consider what is more just: not killing perpetrators, or killing innocents? Obviously, not killing is preferable. As Socrates said 2400 years ago, it's worse to commit injustice than to suffer it. If you want an intelligent commentary on the current situation, please listen to Yuval Noah Harari on Sam Harris' podcast about this.

xster 3y ago

Can you show us some first-hand sources of what exactly did happen in 10/7? If not suitable for TikTok (though gore and violence upon Palestinians are readily visible), there must be available somewhere on PeerTube or blockchain platforms.

rendall 3y ago
Here is a telegram channel. I know there are others. I can't really stomach it. https://t.me/OctoberSeventh https://t.me/OctoberSeventh