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Israel and pro-Israel commentators have spent a lot of time and effort trying to ingrain the idea that Israel == Jews. Of course, not all Jews are Israeli, and
by ARandumGuy 3y ago
Israel and pro-Israel commentators have spent a lot of time and effort trying to ingrain the idea that Israel == Jews. Of course, not all Jews are Israeli, and not all Israelis are Jews. And there are many Jewish Israelis who are critical of the actions of the Israeli government.
Of course, a lot of criticism of Israel is rooted in antisemitism. But saying all criticism of Israel is antisemitic deflects legitimate criticism, and makes it harder to identify legitimate antisemitism.
- matrix87 3y ago> But saying all criticism of Israel is antisemitic deflects legitimate criticism Who is saying this? All I've heard are people on one side insisting that people are saying this, sounds like a straw man
- the_gastropod 3y agoThis isn't exactly the same, but it's pretty close. Here's Nikki Haley tweeting: "Anti-Zionism is antisemitism. No federal funds for schools that don't combat antisemitism." [1] [1] https://twitter.com/NikkiHaley/status/1720501916088590704 https://twitter.com/NikkiHaley/status/1720501916088590704
- oytis 3y agoAnti-Zionism is asserting that the Jewish state should not exist in the land of Israel. It _is_ antisemitism. You can criticize current Israeli government and it's certain actions, while acknowledging Israel's right to exist and defend its existence. There are plenty of people in Israel who are opposed to Netanyahu and were protesting against him before the war started, but don't doubt that destroying Hamas is justified.
- the_gastropod 3y agoEven if your definition here of Anti-Zionism was correct (it's not [1]), that is categorically different than what antisemitism is: a hatred of Jews, a belief in a global Jewish conspiracy, belief that Jews control capitalism / created communism, etc., belief that Jews are racially inferior, etc. Sure, people that are antisemitic can also be Anti-Zionist (e.g., the Ku Klux Clan). But so too can people be proudly Jewish and Anti-Zionist (e.g., most Orthodox Jews). People can also be antisemitic and Zionist (e.g., many evangelical Christians, Donald Trump, John Hagee, etc.). Anti-Zionism and antisemitism are orthogonal ideas. Conflation of them is pure propaganda. [1] "Although anti-Zionism is a heterogeneous phenomenon, all its proponents agree that the creation of the modern State of Israel, and the movement to create a sovereign Jewish state in the region of Palestine—the biblical Land of Israel—was flawed or unjust in some way." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Zionism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Zionism
- 8note 3y agoIsrael is an implementation detail, not a requirement. No state has a right to exist: people have rights, not states.
- oytis 3y agoIt is about people. Jews have right for their own state and the right to defend it.
- 49531 3y agoThe US House of Representatives passed a measure on Tuesday which "clearly and firmly states that anti-Zionism is antisemitism"[1]; so at least 311 congress members are saying it. 1. https://www.congress.gov/118/bills/hres894/BILLS-118hres894ih.pdf https://www.congress.gov/118/bills/hres894/BILLS-118hres894i...
- samatman 3y agoanti-Zionism is the proposition that Israel must be destroyed. Zionism is the movement to ensure that the Jewish homeland in the form of the state of Israel be created and sustained, anti-Zionism is its antithesis. This is not the same as being critical of that state, being anti-Israel isn't antisemitic (except when it is, obviously), but nor is it anti-Zionism. Saying Netanyahu should be dragged before the Hague, that the international community should demand an immediate ceasefire or force a two-state solution, that Israel must uphold the right of return: none of these are anti-Zionism, nor antisemitic. If your position is not that Israel must be destroyed, good, don't call yourself anti-Zionist though. If it is, then yes, that's antisemitic, or the word is meaningless. Similarly, find another slogan besides "From the river to the sea", because that is, in fact, a call to ethnically cleanse all Jews from Israel. It has meant that since the establishment of Israel, and you don't get to wander in and say it means something different at this point. If you don't mean that, don't say it. Find literally any other way to express yourself.
- roflyear 3y agoI always was under the impression that Anti-Zionism was just being against Zionism.
- dlubarov 3y agoThere were basically two prongs to Zionism, (1) encouraging the return of Jews to their homeland, and (2) supporting the creation a Jewish state. Now that Israel exists, (2) has morphed into something like "supporting Israel's continued existence and connection to Judaism". I think being anti-Zionist means being against both prongs, meaning that there should no longer be a Jewish state. Given the practical implications of that, it seems hard to justify without antisemitism. Wikipedia has a whole section [1] on "View that [anti-Zionism and antisemitism] are not interlinked", but those supporting that view seem to be using an overly-broad definition of anti-Zionism. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Zionism#View_that_the_two_are_not_interlinked https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Zionism#View_that_the_two...
- ARandumGuy 3y agoThe Wikipedia page on "Criticism of Israel" [1] has an extensive section on critics of Israel accused of antisemitism, if you'd like a good starting point. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Israel#Suppression_of_criticism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Israel#Suppressio...
- __loam 3y agoIsrael spends a lot of money on this in the United States and does have impact on our laws and freedoms. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2019/05/01/statehouse-model-bills-bds-protest-bans/3575083002/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2019/05/0...
- mantas 3y ago[flagged]
- nielsbot 3y agoYou just did the thing: Conflating being pro-Palestine (Anti-zionist) with anti-Jew. Why is it weird to mention non-Israeli jews when being Anti-zionist? The point is to NOT conflate Zionism with being Jewish. The matter of what should happen in Israel/Palestine is separate from this discussion. Anyway, they wouldn't (in theory) necessarily have to go anywhere. Jews and Arabs could have lived together in a single democratic country where one religion/ethnicity isn't favored over another.
- tcbawo 3y agoIf the mandate of the nation of Israel is to provide a place of refuge to Jewish people around the world, it must be a country that favors Jewish religion/ethnicity. I think this was the basis for the two-state solution, which somehow seems like even more of an impossibility than in the past. The mandate of Israel as a Jewish state is at odds with a free democracy with equal rights for citizens of all ethnicities/religions. I am also a complete outside observer and have no insights to add, other than what is happening to innocent people has been awful and tragic.
- nielsbot 3y agoI disagree we must have a state in modern times that favors a religion or ethnicity. That's basically what South Africa was. See also the history of the USA. Israel can and should be a place for Jews to be safe but it doesn't have to be favor one religion or ethnicity. I think Anti-semitism can be controlled especially in a place with a large minority (or even majority) of Jewish peoples. Before the founding of Israel, Jews, Christians and Muslims generally co-existed with tolerance in the Middle East.
- mantas 3y agoIt’s very hard to have a state that doesn’t push one culture or another as primary. Otherwise there’s no glue keeping the society together. Which is important to get people to approve government decisions. As for peacefully coexisting, would you say that Christians and Muslims peacefully coexisted in Ottoman Balkans too?
- cmilton 3y agoI feel like this a great point. As an American, I’m not labeled as any particular religion. I honestly wish there were no labels at all. I would much rather look at things as right and wrong based on the specific situation. The goal, in my opinion, is division. Without it, they have nothing. Peace above all!
- snird 3y ago[flagged]
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]