5 ms·

This. I have always been very very skeptical of the motives and intentions of various BDS groups over the years. Lots of issues with hypocrisy, propaganda, and

This. I have always been very very skeptical of the motives and intentions of various BDS groups over the years. Lots of issues with hypocrisy, propaganda, and double standards. But that doesn't excuse the murder of thousands of civilians in collective retribution for the murder of a few dozen. It's possible for both things to be true: Hamas is bad and committed a heinous act of terrorism, and Israel is committing a horrifying atrocity against Palestinian civilians in retaliation.

zczc 3y ago
As far as i understand, the main goal of the Israel operation is to remove Hamas capability to launch another Oct.7-style attack in the future: prevention, not retaliation (though one can argue if there is a way to achieve this goal with less cost on civilians).
- mandmandam 3y ago
  > one can argue if there is a way to achieve this goal with less cost on civilians) Not really, no. There's no argument. The entire world is calling for a ceasefire because so many civilians are being murdered.
- sudosysgen 3y ago
  The current approach will not achieve this goal. Overwhelming force doesn't stop insurrections unless it goes all the way to genocide or ethnic cleansing. That's what makes the argument especially pointless.
- kingkawn 3y ago
  The IDF listening to its own intelligence assessments alone would’ve prevented Hamas from launching that attack. Hence what they are doing is mass retaliation against the entire population of Gaza, not to mention the killings in the West Bank and the suppression of domestic dissent against the war.
  - oh_sigh 3y ago
    If I tell you someone will break into your house sometime in the future...maybe tomorrow, maybe 5 years from now, and actually maybe never...how would you change your behavior? There was some intelligence about a potential threat, but hardly anything specific that they could easily respond to. Coupled with the fact that Hamas has their own counterintelligence laying out deceptions in the months leading up to the attack. I guess Israel could have just stationed a few battalions over the full length of the border....forever.
    - joomooru 3y ago
      Israel absolutely had incredibly specific intel [1] of the attack plans a year in advance of the attack, yet chose to do nothing out of arrogance [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-attack-intelligence.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/world/middleeast/israel-h...
      - IncreasePosts 3y ago
        (alternate account for oh_sigh here, apparently posting 3 times 90 minutes ago means I can't post anymore today) Yes, they had intel about the attack method, but not the dates, or even if it was real or aspirational. This goes to my question about the person break into your home... What changes or adjustments could Israel have taken based on the intel? Like I said, maybe they could just place a bunch of battalions along the entire border, but then maybe Hamas would just lay low until they were gone.
      - nerdponx 3y ago
        For all we know they allowed it to happen so they'd have an excuse to retaliate. See also: basically every 9/11 conspiracy theory.
        oh_sigh 3y ago
        For all we know you're a lizard person trying to push humanity into a nuclear Holocaust so the lizard people can take earth over.
oh_sigh 3y ago
Without looking it up, how many people do you think Hamas terrorists killed on October 7th?
- nerdponx 3y ago
  The initial news reports here in the US mainstream media made it seem like dozens or hundreds at most. The music festival seemed like the worst of it.
  - oh_sigh 3y ago
    Ok, but we've known for a whole now that the number is around 1200 killed. Not what most would call "a few dozen".
    - zlg_codes 3y ago
      [flagged]
    - nerdponx 3y ago
      I didn't know it was over a thousand, that's my mistake.
edanm 3y ago
> But that doesn't excuse the murder of thousands of civilians in collective retribution for the murder of a few dozen. 1,200 Israelis were killed, not "a few dozen". 250 were kidnapped and held hostage, of those about 130 are still being held. Second, Israel isn't "murdering" civilians in collective retribution. It's fighting a war against a neighboring "government" that has just invaded it, slaughtered thousands of its citizens, and has promised to do it again and again. Many civilians are dying in this war, which is a horrible tragedy, and is unfortunately true of every war, which is one reason wars are so terrible. But it's hard to say this war isn't justified given the promises of Hamas.
- MSFT_Edging 3y ago
  > Second, Israel isn't "murdering" civilians in collective retribution. Dehumanization is the first step to a genocide. Additionally, this does not explain the violence being done in the West Bank to Palestinians, a population that is notably not ruled by Hamas.
  - edanm 3y ago
    What did I say that was dehumanizing? If you're talking about me putting the word "murder" in quotes, it's because casualties of war aren't usually referred to as victims of murder, but I was quoting the parent post. > Additionally, this does not explain the violence being done in the West Bank to Palestinians, a population that is notably not ruled by Hamas. There are definitely Hamas operatives there as well, not to mention a public that is overwhelmingly supportive of Hamas's actions. I'm not saying this to say they should be "punished", I'm saying this to explain that there are genuine security threats that Israel needs to deal with in the WB as well. That said, some of the violence there is totally unjustified, especially violence instigated by settlers and not the IDF.
    - MSFT_Edging 3y ago
      You are conveniently ignoring that these aren't civilians getting caught in a crossfire. They're civilians being targeted. You don't kill about 20k civilians in 2 months without targeting civilians. To call these deaths simply a casualty of a normal war is seriously undercutting how heinous the actions by the IDF are.

zczc 3y ago

As far as i understand, the main goal of the Israel operation is to remove Hamas capability to launch another Oct.7-style attack in the future: prevention, not retaliation (though one can argue if there is a way to achieve this goal with less cost on civilians).

mandmandam 3y ago
> one can argue if there is a way to achieve this goal with less cost on civilians) Not really, no. There's no argument. The entire world is calling for a ceasefire because so many civilians are being murdered.
sudosysgen 3y ago
The current approach will not achieve this goal. Overwhelming force doesn't stop insurrections unless it goes all the way to genocide or ethnic cleansing. That's what makes the argument especially pointless.
kingkawn 3y ago
The IDF listening to its own intelligence assessments alone would’ve prevented Hamas from launching that attack. Hence what they are doing is mass retaliation against the entire population of Gaza, not to mention the killings in the West Bank and the suppression of domestic dissent against the war.
- oh_sigh 3y ago
  If I tell you someone will break into your house sometime in the future...maybe tomorrow, maybe 5 years from now, and actually maybe never...how would you change your behavior? There was some intelligence about a potential threat, but hardly anything specific that they could easily respond to. Coupled with the fact that Hamas has their own counterintelligence laying out deceptions in the months leading up to the attack. I guess Israel could have just stationed a few battalions over the full length of the border....forever.
  - joomooru 3y ago
    Israel absolutely had incredibly specific intel [1] of the attack plans a year in advance of the attack, yet chose to do nothing out of arrogance [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/world/middleeast/israel-hamas-attack-intelligence.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/30/world/middleeast/israel-h...
    - IncreasePosts 3y ago
      (alternate account for oh_sigh here, apparently posting 3 times 90 minutes ago means I can't post anymore today) Yes, they had intel about the attack method, but not the dates, or even if it was real or aspirational. This goes to my question about the person break into your home... What changes or adjustments could Israel have taken based on the intel? Like I said, maybe they could just place a bunch of battalions along the entire border, but then maybe Hamas would just lay low until they were gone.
    - nerdponx 3y ago
      For all we know they allowed it to happen so they'd have an excuse to retaliate. See also: basically every 9/11 conspiracy theory.
      - oh_sigh 3y ago
        For all we know you're a lizard person trying to push humanity into a nuclear Holocaust so the lizard people can take earth over.

oh_sigh 3y ago

Without looking it up, how many people do you think Hamas terrorists killed on October 7th?

nerdponx 3y ago
The initial news reports here in the US mainstream media made it seem like dozens or hundreds at most. The music festival seemed like the worst of it.
- oh_sigh 3y ago
  Ok, but we've known for a whole now that the number is around 1200 killed. Not what most would call "a few dozen".
  - zlg_codes 3y ago
    [flagged]
  - nerdponx 3y ago
    I didn't know it was over a thousand, that's my mistake.

edanm 3y ago

> But that doesn't excuse the murder of thousands of civilians in collective retribution for the murder of a few dozen. 1,200 Israelis were killed, not "a few dozen". 250 were kidnapped and held hostage, of those about 130 are still being held. Second, Israel isn't "murdering" civilians in collective retribution. It's fighting a war against a neighboring "government" that has just invaded it, slaughtered thousands of its citizens, and has promised to do it again and again. Many civilians are dying in this war, which is a horrible tragedy, and is unfortunately true of every war, which is one reason wars are so terrible. But it's hard to say this war isn't justified given the promises of Hamas.

MSFT_Edging 3y ago
> Second, Israel isn't "murdering" civilians in collective retribution. Dehumanization is the first step to a genocide. Additionally, this does not explain the violence being done in the West Bank to Palestinians, a population that is notably not ruled by Hamas.
- edanm 3y ago
  What did I say that was dehumanizing? If you're talking about me putting the word "murder" in quotes, it's because casualties of war aren't usually referred to as victims of murder, but I was quoting the parent post. > Additionally, this does not explain the violence being done in the West Bank to Palestinians, a population that is notably not ruled by Hamas. There are definitely Hamas operatives there as well, not to mention a public that is overwhelmingly supportive of Hamas's actions. I'm not saying this to say they should be "punished", I'm saying this to explain that there are genuine security threats that Israel needs to deal with in the WB as well. That said, some of the violence there is totally unjustified, especially violence instigated by settlers and not the IDF.
  - MSFT_Edging 3y ago
    You are conveniently ignoring that these aren't civilians getting caught in a crossfire. They're civilians being targeted. You don't kill about 20k civilians in 2 months without targeting civilians. To call these deaths simply a casualty of a normal war is seriously undercutting how heinous the actions by the IDF are.