5 ms·

Every once in a while I come back to this, and walk away feeling like it's not worth my time to learn. The language might be "objectively" simple, but it's not

Every once in a while I come back to this, and walk away feeling like it's not worth my time to learn. The language might be "objectively" simple, but it's not at all a simple language. There is no user guide, nor is there a nice readable language spec like R7RS. There's a reference manual, and a bunch of StackOverflow examples that look like Perl with S-expressions. I'd love to sit down and work through a reference manual, but who has time for that nowadays? I love the idea of a Lisp purpose-built for data processing, but practically I don't know what I'll gain by learning this that I don't already have with Python, Zsh, and Gauche Scheme. Can someone convince me otherwise? What's the killer feature of TXR that makes it worth the effort of learning it the hard way? Also, what's with the leading @-signs in some of the examples? Does that (try) form delimit some kind of block or region? Why are there some lines that look like bare string literals? It's clever and impressive to manually build a patch that can be applied with Git, but is this solution any cleaner or faster or easier to write or read than the equivalent in Python or Perl or Gauche or Guile or Common Lisp? https://stackoverflow.com/a/37336801/2954547 https://stackoverflow.com/a/37336801/2954547

usgroup 3y ago
You should learn Prolog sir: for the man that has everything.
- nerdponx 3y ago
  I actually started down that path last year, with the incredible Power of Prolog book and video series. It's one of the more impressive learning resources I have ever come across.
  - usgroup 3y ago
    Prolog is only for the brave and true: when the student is ready, the teacher will appear :-)
    - mmcdermott 3y ago
      I think a lot of the difficulty in Prolog comes down to the fact that you can read Prolog programs three ways: as a restricted form of first order logic (Horn clauses), as a procedure, and as an execution model. The last is double confusing because almost all programmers are used to controlling the execution model and Prolog demands that you relinquish a lot of control there ("Algorithm = logic + control" by Kowalski talks about this a bit). You also cannot ignore any of them because any non-trivial Prolog program exploits all three.
      - usgroup 3y ago
        Yeah I think that's right. I'm doing Advent of Code in Prolog at the moment and checking other people's solutions -- I've yet to see 2 Prolog solutions which are mostly the same. The admixture you described results in code that aligns very closely with the thinker, and less closely with a specific procedure. Its very weird to see. Having said that -- once you get Prolog and use it for a while, your brain (at least my brain) wants to replace EVERYTHING with Prolog.
        vcdimension 3y ago
        It should be easy to implement miniKanren in txr lisp.
        kazinator 3y ago
        I would consider something like that for inclusion in stdlib/.
stcg 3y ago
> The language might be "objectively" simple, but it's not at all a simple language. You could say that it's simple but not easy
vcdimension 3y ago
I got stuck into txr lisp a few years ago, and wrote some code for parsing bank statements. It has a builtin DSL (the @ syntax) which is great for text processing (better than perl IMO). It's also a fun language to learn, with lots of cool features such as combinators, continuations, macros, pattern matching, range objects, JSON objects, etc. It's more powerful than python, R or julia and would make a great successor to those languages for data science, but there are very few libraries ATM so that's a long journey. Here are some I wrote (including a zsh script for browsing the manual): https://github.com/vapniks/txr-libs https://github.com/vapniks/txr-libs IMO a good first step would be to use the txr FFI to write a library for Apache arrow: https://arrow.apache.org/ https://arrow.apache.org/
- nerdponx 3y ago
  Thanks for that! Do you have advice for learning it? How did you get started, and what made you decide to stick with it instead of other languages? I'm happy to try to use it for Advent of Code 2024, but it would help if I could at least get oriented so I'm not going in totally cold (and thereby likely to fall off the wagon after 3 days because each one takes 2 hours in an unfamiliar language). The data science use case is particularly interesting and not something I had considered here. Arrow bindings help immensely. Of course at work I'll probably never get a chance to use anything other than Python and R for many years to come; maybe Julia is the most exotic I think I'd ever be able to go, and that's only if I ever hit a performance bottleneck in Python that can't be remediated with Numba.
  - kazinator 3y ago
    There are some Advent of Code 2021 solutions in TXR: https://www.kylheku.com/cgit/advent/tree https://www.kylheku.com/cgit/advent/tree That gives a flavor of how those kinds of problems can be approached. The solutions are all self-contained; they don't share any AoC-specific library or anything, and were developed with a throwaway program mindset, where we just solve that problem and don't try to produce anything that is reusable other than by copy paste into the next program.
  - vcdimension 3y ago
kazinator 3y ago
> that I don't already have with Python, Zsh, and Gauche Scheme. Those times when it would be nice for the Python-Zsh-Scheme solution to be in one language and program. > is this solution any cleaner or faster or easier to write or read than the equivalent in Python or Perl or Gauche or Guile or Common Lisp? I believe so because we can see the salient parts of the diff hunk structure appearing literally in the code, so we know at a glance where it is pulling what. I've not looked at that since 2016 but it's transparent. On top of that, any Python, Perl, Guile or Common Lisp solution can be transliterated to decent TXR Lisp. There are multiple ways to attack that same problem in TXR, not necessarily using the TXR Pattern Language. There are "spiritual ties" between TXR Lisp and Common Lisp. There probably isn't another language distinct from Common Lisp that is as similar to Common Lisp as TXR Lisp. The TXR Lisp reference manual mentions ANSI CL numerous times in various Dialect Notes. There is a translation to TXR Lisp of the CL-WHO HTML generation library called TL-WHO. It's a function-by-function translation that retains most of the structure of the original code. https://www.kylheku.com/cgit/tl-who/about/ https://www.kylheku.com/cgit/tl-who/about/ If you have CL skills and knowledge, a lot of it will transfer over to TXR Lisp, and vice versa. There will be things you will miss in either direction. By the way, here is another TXR program that matches unified diffs: diff2err: https://www.kylheku.com/cgit/diff2err/tree https://www.kylheku.com/cgit/diff2err/tree This reads diff material from standard in and converts it to compiler error format, stored in a file called errors.err (implicitly used by "vim -q" quickfix mode). This is useful for visiting differences in the actual code, with the editor: you can jump to all the places that were changed, and at every location, the diff info appears in diagnostic format: how many lines were changed, and what the original lines are.
kazinator 3y ago
R7RS is readable because it's small; you could read it in one sitting. The writing style isn't particularly better than the one in the TXR manual. Both are specifications, and not tutorials. The Scheme world depends on R7RS for giving the requirements for the portable, common language core. Since TXR isn't a fragmented language family of incompatible implementations, there isn't any need to have a small document laying out what is common. Where is the hyperlinked, HTML version of R7RS? Every time I need to look up something in that, I have to use a clunky PDF. A search "HTML R7RS", shows mostly old posts in mailing lists and forums asking the same question. That and someone's github repo containing what seems to be source for generating a HTML-ized R7RS. The TXR manual is available in usefully (though imperfectly) hyper-linked HTML, PDF as well as a man page: just "man txr" and /search. When you type (doc 'symbol) in the listener, it jumps your browser to that section of the manual (the externally hosted version, easily retargetable to a local copy by changing the value of *doc-url*.

usgroup 3y ago

You should learn Prolog sir: for the man that has everything.

nerdponx 3y ago
I actually started down that path last year, with the incredible Power of Prolog book and video series. It's one of the more impressive learning resources I have ever come across.
- usgroup 3y ago
  Prolog is only for the brave and true: when the student is ready, the teacher will appear :-)
  - mmcdermott 3y ago
    I think a lot of the difficulty in Prolog comes down to the fact that you can read Prolog programs three ways: as a restricted form of first order logic (Horn clauses), as a procedure, and as an execution model. The last is double confusing because almost all programmers are used to controlling the execution model and Prolog demands that you relinquish a lot of control there ("Algorithm = logic + control" by Kowalski talks about this a bit). You also cannot ignore any of them because any non-trivial Prolog program exploits all three.
    - usgroup 3y ago
      Yeah I think that's right. I'm doing Advent of Code in Prolog at the moment and checking other people's solutions -- I've yet to see 2 Prolog solutions which are mostly the same. The admixture you described results in code that aligns very closely with the thinker, and less closely with a specific procedure. Its very weird to see. Having said that -- once you get Prolog and use it for a while, your brain (at least my brain) wants to replace EVERYTHING with Prolog.
      - vcdimension 3y ago
        It should be easy to implement miniKanren in txr lisp.
        kazinator 3y ago
        I would consider something like that for inclusion in stdlib/.

stcg 3y ago

> The language might be "objectively" simple, but it's not at all a simple language. You could say that it's simple but not easy

vcdimension 3y ago

I got stuck into txr lisp a few years ago, and wrote some code for parsing bank statements. It has a builtin DSL (the @ syntax) which is great for text processing (better than perl IMO). It's also a fun language to learn, with lots of cool features such as combinators, continuations, macros, pattern matching, range objects, JSON objects, etc. It's more powerful than python, R or julia and would make a great successor to those languages for data science, but there are very few libraries ATM so that's a long journey. Here are some I wrote (including a zsh script for browsing the manual): https://github.com/vapniks/txr-libs https://github.com/vapniks/txr-libs IMO a good first step would be to use the txr FFI to write a library for Apache arrow: https://arrow.apache.org/ https://arrow.apache.org/

nerdponx 3y ago
Thanks for that! Do you have advice for learning it? How did you get started, and what made you decide to stick with it instead of other languages? I'm happy to try to use it for Advent of Code 2024, but it would help if I could at least get oriented so I'm not going in totally cold (and thereby likely to fall off the wagon after 3 days because each one takes 2 hours in an unfamiliar language). The data science use case is particularly interesting and not something I had considered here. Arrow bindings help immensely. Of course at work I'll probably never get a chance to use anything other than Python and R for many years to come; maybe Julia is the most exotic I think I'd ever be able to go, and that's only if I ever hit a performance bottleneck in Python that can't be remediated with Numba.
- kazinator 3y ago
  There are some Advent of Code 2021 solutions in TXR: https://www.kylheku.com/cgit/advent/tree https://www.kylheku.com/cgit/advent/tree That gives a flavor of how those kinds of problems can be approached. The solutions are all self-contained; they don't share any AoC-specific library or anything, and were developed with a throwaway program mindset, where we just solve that problem and don't try to produce anything that is reusable other than by copy paste into the next program.
- vcdimension 3y ago

kazinator 3y ago

> that I don't already have with Python, Zsh, and Gauche Scheme. Those times when it would be nice for the Python-Zsh-Scheme solution to be in one language and program. > is this solution any cleaner or faster or easier to write or read than the equivalent in Python or Perl or Gauche or Guile or Common Lisp? I believe so because we can see the salient parts of the diff hunk structure appearing literally in the code, so we know at a glance where it is pulling what. I've not looked at that since 2016 but it's transparent. On top of that, any Python, Perl, Guile or Common Lisp solution can be transliterated to decent TXR Lisp. There are multiple ways to attack that same problem in TXR, not necessarily using the TXR Pattern Language. There are "spiritual ties" between TXR Lisp and Common Lisp. There probably isn't another language distinct from Common Lisp that is as similar to Common Lisp as TXR Lisp. The TXR Lisp reference manual mentions ANSI CL numerous times in various Dialect Notes. There is a translation to TXR Lisp of the CL-WHO HTML generation library called TL-WHO. It's a function-by-function translation that retains most of the structure of the original code. https://www.kylheku.com/cgit/tl-who/about/ https://www.kylheku.com/cgit/tl-who/about/ If you have CL skills and knowledge, a lot of it will transfer over to TXR Lisp, and vice versa. There will be things you will miss in either direction. By the way, here is another TXR program that matches unified diffs: diff2err: https://www.kylheku.com/cgit/diff2err/tree https://www.kylheku.com/cgit/diff2err/tree This reads diff material from standard in and converts it to compiler error format, stored in a file called errors.err (implicitly used by "vim -q" quickfix mode). This is useful for visiting differences in the actual code, with the editor: you can jump to all the places that were changed, and at every location, the diff info appears in diagnostic format: how many lines were changed, and what the original lines are.

kazinator 3y ago

R7RS is readable because it's small; you could read it in one sitting. The writing style isn't particularly better than the one in the TXR manual. Both are specifications, and not tutorials. The Scheme world depends on R7RS for giving the requirements for the portable, common language core. Since TXR isn't a fragmented language family of incompatible implementations, there isn't any need to have a small document laying out what is common. Where is the hyperlinked, HTML version of R7RS? Every time I need to look up something in that, I have to use a clunky PDF. A search "HTML R7RS", shows mostly old posts in mailing lists and forums asking the same question. That and someone's github repo containing what seems to be source for generating a HTML-ized R7RS. The TXR manual is available in usefully (though imperfectly) hyper-linked HTML, PDF as well as a man page: just "man txr" and /search. When you type (doc 'symbol) in the listener, it jumps your browser to that section of the manual (the externally hosted version, easily retargetable to a local copy by changing the value of *doc-url*.