5 ms·

It will be stuck in legal hell due to conflicts of interests. Trains already exist, and they need to work - but maintenance/repair companies cannot legally modi

It will be stuck in legal hell due to conflicts of interests. Trains already exist, and they need to work - but maintenance/repair companies cannot legally modify software of them due to copyrights. It's a catch22 situation. I honestly hope that company will be fined to the oblivion, and for criminal charges for that, but i doubt it will happen.

dontlaugh 3y ago
The only practical solution is to re-nationalise this company.
xg15 3y ago
Supposedly tho the maintenance company would want to sue to at least dispute their contractual penalties? > A day of train downtime in the workshop costs over 1000 USD in contractual penalties, and there are several trains stuck, so the tension level in the SPS is rising. Also LSR, because evidently they were interested in holding a tender before and so likely don't want to be forced by Newag into overpriced maintenance contracts?
db48x 3y ago
Of course laws vary, and Polish copyright law might be completely crazy, but around here copyright only covers distribution of copies. It does not make it illegal to modify software that you own. It only limits distribution of copies of that software, modified or otherwise. If the owner of the train wants to modify the software then there is probably nothing stopping them.
- krisoft 3y ago
  > If the owner of the train wants to modify the software then there is probably nothing stopping them. This of assumes that the owner of the train company has the skills to do this. In reality they probably would need outside help and that company might fall foul of copyright issues. (when they are distributing the modified code back to the train company, for example) But the real problem of course is that all of this code is very likely safety critical. Can they modify it? Probably. Is it a good idea? Not really.
  - o11c 3y ago
    Performing a task for someone, whether directly or as a third party contract, generally doesn't invoke copyright.
    - jakub_g 3y ago
      As a CEO of a railway company, not sure I'd want folks to patch the binaries on my trains. Pretty sure an insurance company wouldn't like that in case shit happens. Rather, the companies with botched trains should demand from Newag to remove their locks, for free, and on the side sue them.
      - krisoft 3y ago
        > Rather, the companies with botched trains should demand from Newag to remove their locks, for free, and on the side sue them. This is the way.
- dn3500 3y ago
  I don't know anything about Polish law either, but in the US, copyright law (DMCA in particular) makes it illegal to modify the software in a device you own, if it requires circumventing protection code or devices. Which it probably would in this case.
  - eastbound 3y ago
    But could the authors be attacked for treason, destruction of property, or a simili-Patriot Act? Besides, have we learnt something about any public software being required to be delivered as open-source?
  - magnat 3y ago
    According to the Polish copyright law, by default one can reverse engineer and modify licensed software without author's permission to ensure interoperability with other software and for fixing bugs. Such right can be explicitly denied by the copyright owner, though.
gorkish 3y ago
This is the kind of thing that will destroy a nation's manufacturing industry overnight. Who in their right mind would buy kind of equipment from a Polish company knowing that this kind of nonsense is both widespread and that their legal system has no solution? Hoestly, "Dieselgate" is not a fitting corollary for this travesty. This is considerably more sinister. Hopefully whatever happens from here will be an agent of change for the better.
- opliko 3y ago
  Newag is actually trying to expand into Italy and a few years back they sold (and already delivered) 11 of their Impuls 2 trains (newer variant of the ones described in the article) to Ferrovie del Sud Est. I'm really wondering whether they got the same extortion software as the ones in Poland or did they maybe spare a new client on a new market.
- eastbound 3y ago
  Aren’t we all doing this when we buy software from the cloud?
  - bornfreddy 3y ago
    No? When using the cloud we are renting resources and can (in theory) switch providers as we wish. Here they bought a machine that vendor purposefully broke after some time or with purpose to disable competition from doing their job.
dylan604 3y ago
How does one become an train repair company if there are no trains that you are allowed to repair?
Log_out_ 3y ago
We will see firmware wars were open source train software wind.
account42 3y ago
> It will be stuck in legal hell due to conflicts of interests. Trains already exist, and they need to work - but maintenance/repair companies cannot legally modify software of them due to copyrights. It's a catch22 situation. Which is why any government funding for new trains should come with the requirement for open source firmware. Well better yet would be to abolish or reform copyright to be more aligned with the interests of society at large but international pressure makes that even less likely.

dontlaugh 3y ago

The only practical solution is to re-nationalise this company.

xg15 3y ago

Supposedly tho the maintenance company would want to sue to at least dispute their contractual penalties? > A day of train downtime in the workshop costs over 1000 USD in contractual penalties, and there are several trains stuck, so the tension level in the SPS is rising. Also LSR, because evidently they were interested in holding a tender before and so likely don't want to be forced by Newag into overpriced maintenance contracts?

db48x 3y ago

Of course laws vary, and Polish copyright law might be completely crazy, but around here copyright only covers distribution of copies. It does not make it illegal to modify software that you own. It only limits distribution of copies of that software, modified or otherwise. If the owner of the train wants to modify the software then there is probably nothing stopping them.

krisoft 3y ago
> If the owner of the train wants to modify the software then there is probably nothing stopping them. This of assumes that the owner of the train company has the skills to do this. In reality they probably would need outside help and that company might fall foul of copyright issues. (when they are distributing the modified code back to the train company, for example) But the real problem of course is that all of this code is very likely safety critical. Can they modify it? Probably. Is it a good idea? Not really.
- o11c 3y ago
  Performing a task for someone, whether directly or as a third party contract, generally doesn't invoke copyright.
  - jakub_g 3y ago
    As a CEO of a railway company, not sure I'd want folks to patch the binaries on my trains. Pretty sure an insurance company wouldn't like that in case shit happens. Rather, the companies with botched trains should demand from Newag to remove their locks, for free, and on the side sue them.
    - krisoft 3y ago
      > Rather, the companies with botched trains should demand from Newag to remove their locks, for free, and on the side sue them. This is the way.
dn3500 3y ago
I don't know anything about Polish law either, but in the US, copyright law (DMCA in particular) makes it illegal to modify the software in a device you own, if it requires circumventing protection code or devices. Which it probably would in this case.
- eastbound 3y ago
  But could the authors be attacked for treason, destruction of property, or a simili-Patriot Act? Besides, have we learnt something about any public software being required to be delivered as open-source?
- magnat 3y ago
  According to the Polish copyright law, by default one can reverse engineer and modify licensed software without author's permission to ensure interoperability with other software and for fixing bugs. Such right can be explicitly denied by the copyright owner, though.

gorkish 3y ago

This is the kind of thing that will destroy a nation's manufacturing industry overnight. Who in their right mind would buy kind of equipment from a Polish company knowing that this kind of nonsense is both widespread and that their legal system has no solution? Hoestly, "Dieselgate" is not a fitting corollary for this travesty. This is considerably more sinister. Hopefully whatever happens from here will be an agent of change for the better.

opliko 3y ago
Newag is actually trying to expand into Italy and a few years back they sold (and already delivered) 11 of their Impuls 2 trains (newer variant of the ones described in the article) to Ferrovie del Sud Est. I'm really wondering whether they got the same extortion software as the ones in Poland or did they maybe spare a new client on a new market.
eastbound 3y ago
Aren’t we all doing this when we buy software from the cloud?
- bornfreddy 3y ago
  No? When using the cloud we are renting resources and can (in theory) switch providers as we wish. Here they bought a machine that vendor purposefully broke after some time or with purpose to disable competition from doing their job.

dylan604 3y ago

How does one become an train repair company if there are no trains that you are allowed to repair?

Log_out_ 3y ago

We will see firmware wars were open source train software wind.

account42 3y ago

> It will be stuck in legal hell due to conflicts of interests. Trains already exist, and they need to work - but maintenance/repair companies cannot legally modify software of them due to copyrights. It's a catch22 situation. Which is why any government funding for new trains should come with the requirement for open source firmware. Well better yet would be to abolish or reform copyright to be more aligned with the interests of society at large but international pressure makes that even less likely.