3 ms·

The union doesn't force anyone, it's a collective action, the workers are the union, they've decided to not deliver to Tesla because Tesla is infringing on the

by piva00 3y ago

The union doesn't force anyone, it's a collective action, the workers are the union, they've decided to not deliver to Tesla because Tesla is infringing on the most fundamental labour right in Sweden. Stop thinking about Nordic unions as a boogeyman, a mafia, or whatever other "oppressive" figure you want to make them out to be, the way unions work here is different than what you are probably used to. It's a cornerstone on how the labour market functions in the Nordics...

gruez 3y ago
>The union doesn't force anyone, it's a collective action, the workers are the union, they've decided to not deliver to Tesla because Tesla is infringing on the most fundamental labour right in Sweden. That's a strange way of putting it. Is the us federal government notification not "forcing" anyone to pay taxes, or not smoke weed, because the us is a democracy and therefore it's "collective action"?
- piva00 3y ago
  What? I really do not understand the analogy, would be good to expand on how it relates to the current situation.
  - gruez 3y ago
    If you support taxes (or striking) and the government (or the union) forces you to pay taxes (or strike), you're not being "forced". So far so good. But what if you don't support taxes (or striking)? You might think taxes are a good thing and are necessary for a functioning society, but it's still pretty clear that for someone that doesn't want to pay taxes, they're forced to pay taxes.
    - SiempreViernes 3y ago
      >If [...] the government [...] forces you to pay taxes [...], you're not being "forced". So far so good. Wat? In a discussion about if someone is being forced to take an action, consider not overloading the string "forced" with several meanings.
      - gruez 3y ago
        Saying something isn't "forced" is the opposite of "overloading the string "forced" with several meanings". Also, in the broader context of this argument, I'm for an more expansive definition of "forced" and replying to someone who thinks whatever the union is doing isn't "forcing" anyone. Therefore I'm actually granting my opponent some leeway. If you think the above circumstance also counts as "forced", that actually supports my claim that whatever the union is doing is "forcing" people.
        SiempreViernes 3y ago
        Sorry, that also doesn't parse into a comprehensible argument shrugs
    - xorcist 3y ago
      If you don't want to strike, then don't strike. What is the issue here?
      - gruez 3y ago
        I'm under the impression that the strikes are being enforced by the union. In other words if you're a union member, and the union voted to strike, you can't unilaterally decide to continue working. Is this not the case?
        xorcist 3y ago
        How would that work with basic human rights such as the freedom of association? And how could it be enforced, under civil law? Of course you are free to break the strike or whatever feels right for you. But it might not be compatible with membership in the union, so they may well exercise their right to not keep you around as a member if you are actively trying to sabotage their work.
        piva00 3y ago
        You can work, you can't be part of the union. Not being a member doesn't remove any benefits the union might negotiate with the employer, you just don't have access to the perks of the union (higher income insurance is usually the most important one). I suggest learning more about the Swedish model before spouting opinions on how things work here, you don't understand the system but feels entitled to argue on your assumptions.
- SwedishExpat 3y ago
  Can you realistically have a vote to stop paying taxes or to smoke weed? Because Seko could have a vote to deliver to Tesla if they wanted, but ultimately the Unions are on the employees side so we're okay with their decisions.
  - gruez 3y ago
    > Can you realistically have a vote to stop paying taxes or to smoke weed? This is inevitably going to turn into a quibble about whether representation and/or the electoral college constitutes "true" democracy, so I'm going to head that off by amending my previous comment to be at the state level (rather than the federal level). There's several states that had ballot measures on tax increases and/or marijuana legalization, and failed, for example: https://ballotpedia.org/Arizona_Marijuana_Legalization,_Proposition_205_(2016) https://ballotpedia.org/Arizona_Marijuana_Legalization,_Prop... https://ballotpedia.org/Missouri_Proposition_C,_Medical_Marijuana_and_Veterans_Healthcare_Services,_Education,_Drug_Treatment,_and_Public_Safety_Initiative_(2018) https://ballotpedia.org/Missouri_Proposition_C,_Medical_Mari... https://ballotpedia.org/Nevada_Marijuana_Initiative,_Question_7_(2006) https://ballotpedia.org/Nevada_Marijuana_Initiative,_Questio... In those cases it would be strange to characterize the dissenters as not being "forced" into anything, even if it was a collective decision.
    - SwedishExpat 3y ago
      > In those cases it would be strange to characterize the dissenters as not being "forced" into anything, even if it was a collective decision. Okay, I see, but then you could also leave your Union for zero cost. You could leave your US citizenship too, I guess, by moving. But my point is I think forcing is far too strong a word for the union meanings here. Why wouldn't you support this if you benefit from the Swedish model?
      - gruez 3y ago
        >Okay, I see, but then you could also leave your Union for zero cost. Clearly it's not as simple or cheap as "zero cost", otherwise Tesla would have bribed some workers $1000 (or whatever) to defect, rather than hiring a bunch of expensive lawyers. >But my point is I think forcing is far too strong a word for the union meanings here. Why wouldn't you support this if you benefit from the Swedish model? Whether you benefit from something is irrelevant to whether it's "forced" or not. I think taxes are a net positive for everyone in society, but I'm under no illusions that everyone's forced to pay it.

by piva00 3y ago

gruez 3y ago

>The union doesn't force anyone, it's a collective action, the workers are the union, they've decided to not deliver to Tesla because Tesla is infringing on the most fundamental labour right in Sweden. That's a strange way of putting it. Is the us federal government notification not "forcing" anyone to pay taxes, or not smoke weed, because the us is a democracy and therefore it's "collective action"?

piva00 3y ago
What? I really do not understand the analogy, would be good to expand on how it relates to the current situation.
- gruez 3y ago
  If you support taxes (or striking) and the government (or the union) forces you to pay taxes (or strike), you're not being "forced". So far so good. But what if you don't support taxes (or striking)? You might think taxes are a good thing and are necessary for a functioning society, but it's still pretty clear that for someone that doesn't want to pay taxes, they're forced to pay taxes.
  - SiempreViernes 3y ago
    >If [...] the government [...] forces you to pay taxes [...], you're not being "forced". So far so good. Wat? In a discussion about if someone is being forced to take an action, consider not overloading the string "forced" with several meanings.
    - gruez 3y ago
      Saying something isn't "forced" is the opposite of "overloading the string "forced" with several meanings". Also, in the broader context of this argument, I'm for an more expansive definition of "forced" and replying to someone who thinks whatever the union is doing isn't "forcing" anyone. Therefore I'm actually granting my opponent some leeway. If you think the above circumstance also counts as "forced", that actually supports my claim that whatever the union is doing is "forcing" people.
      - SiempreViernes 3y ago
        Sorry, that also doesn't parse into a comprehensible argument shrugs
  - xorcist 3y ago
    If you don't want to strike, then don't strike. What is the issue here?
    - gruez 3y ago
      I'm under the impression that the strikes are being enforced by the union. In other words if you're a union member, and the union voted to strike, you can't unilaterally decide to continue working. Is this not the case?
      - xorcist 3y ago
        How would that work with basic human rights such as the freedom of association? And how could it be enforced, under civil law? Of course you are free to break the strike or whatever feels right for you. But it might not be compatible with membership in the union, so they may well exercise their right to not keep you around as a member if you are actively trying to sabotage their work.
      - piva00 3y ago
        You can work, you can't be part of the union. Not being a member doesn't remove any benefits the union might negotiate with the employer, you just don't have access to the perks of the union (higher income insurance is usually the most important one). I suggest learning more about the Swedish model before spouting opinions on how things work here, you don't understand the system but feels entitled to argue on your assumptions.
SwedishExpat 3y ago
Can you realistically have a vote to stop paying taxes or to smoke weed? Because Seko could have a vote to deliver to Tesla if they wanted, but ultimately the Unions are on the employees side so we're okay with their decisions.
- gruez 3y ago
  > Can you realistically have a vote to stop paying taxes or to smoke weed? This is inevitably going to turn into a quibble about whether representation and/or the electoral college constitutes "true" democracy, so I'm going to head that off by amending my previous comment to be at the state level (rather than the federal level). There's several states that had ballot measures on tax increases and/or marijuana legalization, and failed, for example: https://ballotpedia.org/Arizona_Marijuana_Legalization,_Proposition_205_(2016) https://ballotpedia.org/Arizona_Marijuana_Legalization,_Prop... https://ballotpedia.org/Missouri_Proposition_C,_Medical_Marijuana_and_Veterans_Healthcare_Services,_Education,_Drug_Treatment,_and_Public_Safety_Initiative_(2018) https://ballotpedia.org/Missouri_Proposition_C,_Medical_Mari... https://ballotpedia.org/Nevada_Marijuana_Initiative,_Question_7_(2006) https://ballotpedia.org/Nevada_Marijuana_Initiative,_Questio... In those cases it would be strange to characterize the dissenters as not being "forced" into anything, even if it was a collective decision.
  - SwedishExpat 3y ago
    > In those cases it would be strange to characterize the dissenters as not being "forced" into anything, even if it was a collective decision. Okay, I see, but then you could also leave your Union for zero cost. You could leave your US citizenship too, I guess, by moving. But my point is I think forcing is far too strong a word for the union meanings here. Why wouldn't you support this if you benefit from the Swedish model?
    - gruez 3y ago
      >Okay, I see, but then you could also leave your Union for zero cost. Clearly it's not as simple or cheap as "zero cost", otherwise Tesla would have bribed some workers $1000 (or whatever) to defect, rather than hiring a bunch of expensive lawyers. >But my point is I think forcing is far too strong a word for the union meanings here. Why wouldn't you support this if you benefit from the Swedish model? Whether you benefit from something is irrelevant to whether it's "forced" or not. I think taxes are a net positive for everyone in society, but I'm under no illusions that everyone's forced to pay it.