5 ms·

> a sympathy strike involves a union deciding to take industrial action against an organisation to support another unions industrial action Interestingly that'

by ajross 3y ago

> a sympathy strike involves a union deciding to take industrial action against an organisation to support another unions industrial action Interestingly that's not quite what's happening either. The workers in question are not in a union. IF Metall is the union being supported, and merely wants to represent them (more correctly, they don't want a non-union shop operating in their market). Everyone is just nuts here. Tesla needs to just cut a deal here, but at the same time this kind of escalation, with all this economic disruption, all for the "benefit" of 160 (or whatever) unrepresented workers who aren't even part of the story and don't seem to be asking for union representation or higher wages or anything is just batshit.

pydry 3y ago
Aggressive American union busting tactics don't go down well in Europe. This isn't the first time this type of thing has happened. Walmart famously crashed and burned in Germany, for example, because they treated the German unions like uppity communists.
- emptysongglass 3y ago
  Exactly. This is about our entire model under threat. And it will be Tesla's Afghanistan. Membership in unions is the norm in Sweden. People want to be in unions. I want to be in my union. We feel good about them and employers (who respect our model) feel good about it too because it is cooperative. For many reasons, the US has a model which is not cooperative but built on bitter enmity. This is repeated throughout the nation with e.g. cars vs bikes. We do not have that here. This is Musk bringing all his prejudice to a bunch of countries he doesn't understand the norms and culture of.
  - andsoitis 3y ago
    >> don't go down well in Europe. > Exactly. This is about our entire model under threat. And it will be Tesla's Afghanistan. Membership in unions is the norm in Sweden. Unionization rates differ significantly across European countries. While the unionization rate in the Sweden is quite high at 65.2% (as of 2019), it is much lower in Germany at 16.3% and even lower in France at 8.9%. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1356735/labor-unions-most-unionized-countries-worldwide/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1356735/labor-unions-mos...
    - emptysongglass 3y ago
      I was specifically speaking about the Nordic Model of which I am a member and a citizen. I could have been more clear but by "my" I meant as a citizen of a country participating in the Nordic Model. What the rest of Europe does is up to them. Unions are foundational to our (Scandinavia's) way of life. This fight ends with Tesla either agreeing to our model or losing our entire market.
      - andsoitis 3y ago
        To put into context, Tesla only employs 120 people in Sweden.
        emptysongglass 3y ago
        [flagged]
    - pgeorgi 3y ago
      There are enough other social norms that US companies can bloody their nose on in other European countries. As for strikes in particular: France doesn't require a union vote to engage in a strike to do so with far-reaching protections (2 employees fighting for an employment-related change seem to suffice from my cursory reading), so the French can strike without needing to be unionized. And boy, do they strike...
    - xorcist 3y ago
      The French system is not at all like the Nordic system. It is much closer to the American system, only with stronger unions. The Swedish almost never go on strikes, with very few exceptions.
- ajross 3y ago
  > Aggressive American union busting tactics don't go down well in Europe. But... Tesla never even got that far. They just hired some people who apparently wanted the jobs? No one got fired or threatened, no bribes are alleged. It really seems like IF Metall fired first, no?
  - Hikikomori 3y ago
    Tesla has refused to negotiate for over 5 years.
    - ajross 3y ago
      With who though? Not their workers. Can you cite coverage of the "union busting" activities you're talking about?
      - pydry 3y ago
        https://archive.is/gXGSn https://archive.is/gXGSn
        ajross 3y ago
        There is nothing remotely like "union busting" alleged in that article (which is quite good, and largely supports my belief that this is an unreasonable escalation by Swedish labor; so much so that I maybe question if you actually read it?).
        pydry 3y ago
        I linked to it because I thought you may not be familiar with this dispute. I'm puzzled. Do you think when he flew in workers from other countries that this was not a strikebreaking tactic or are you saying that this did not happen?
        xorcist 3y ago
        Unreasonable may be in the eye of the beholder. It is however completely expected. If anything, they waited much longer than usual. This is pretty much a school book example how labor conflicts go. The next steps of the conflict are also expected and known well in advance. The only problem is that nobody seems to be willing to inform their higher ups at Tesla what is happening.
cardy31 3y ago
My understanding is that the various unions view Tesla’s actions as a threat to how labour works in Sweden. There apparently isn’t even a minimum wage in the country as everything is governed by these collective agreements. So if they let Tesla come in and not play by the rules it could open the floodgates for other large corporations to come in and do the same, slowly eroding the system.
- andsoitis 3y ago
  > So if they let Tesla come in and not play by the rules Tesla complies with the country's laws, no?
  - sjsdaiuasgdia 3y ago
    The other companies and unions are also complying with the country's laws, and they're exercising their choice to not do business with a company that is choosing to operate in a way that contradicts the existing social structures.
  - capableweb 3y ago
    There are laws and there are norms. In Sweden, both are equally important and you'll get left out if you break either. It's sad in a lot of cases, as it removes some individuality, but it's how the country been operating for a long time. Expecting to run a company against the norms in a culture that so heavily leans on norms is bound to create conflict, which is what we're seeing here.
  - sakjur 3y ago
    And so do the unions. The law takes a hands off approach to regulating the conditions of workers, but that goes both ways. If Tesla avoids signing a collective bargaining agreement, the law won’t help the unions force them to, but it also won’t protect Tesla from the unions.
  - veqz 3y ago
    Laws upheld by the state are the worst good way to maintain order. A much better way is to have the parties play nice with each other, build trust, and negotiate as equals. This allows for much better and more detailed agreements, for quicker reactions if market conditions changes, and for more flexibility within each economic sector. The fact that the Nordic countries operate in such a way no doubt contributes to these countries both having great standards of living, and being among the best in the world to start and run businesses in. Tesla doesn't play nice. They don't build trust, and they don't try to negotiate as equals. True, it is not illegal. It doesn't need to be. We have other ways to keep hostile actors from misbehaving. Strikes are one of those ways.
piva00 3y ago
Tesla brought that unto themselves when they brought in scabs. That's the most egregious act against labour in the Nordics, from that moment they destroyed any chance to be seen as coming into negotiations on a equal footing. You don't do that here, period. > but at the same time this kind of escalation, with all this economic disruption What is the economic disruption? There's no "economic disruption" because of Tesla in Sweden, it's negligible for the overall Swedish economy, stop that... Tesla fucked around, now it's finding out.
SwedishExpat 3y ago
> The workers in question are not in a union Some members of the Tesla servicing stations are members of a union but the numbers aren't public because an employer cannot ask who is in a union > IF Metall is the union being supported and merely wants to represent them Yes, IF Metall is the largest union for that type of work in Sweden. They do represent some employees. > more correctly, they don't want a non-union shop operating in their market Correct, no-one wants this because the entire labour system is built around collective agreements. Allowing companies to break these rules is bad. > Tesla needs to just cut a deal here Yep, or leave! Both works well, the only option that's not viable is to be allowed to break the Nordic/Swedish working model > all for the "benefit" of 160 (or whatever) unrepresented workers Some are represented > who aren't even part of the story and don't seem to be asking for union representation or higher wages or anything Again, Unions represent employees and all members of the company including non-union members can strike because it's illegal to ask or identify who is or isn't in a Union. Which is why this number of non-Union members is mostly made up rubbish by pro-Tesla sites, the number is unknown.

by ajross 3y ago

pydry 3y ago

Aggressive American union busting tactics don't go down well in Europe. This isn't the first time this type of thing has happened. Walmart famously crashed and burned in Germany, for example, because they treated the German unions like uppity communists.

emptysongglass 3y ago
Exactly. This is about our entire model under threat. And it will be Tesla's Afghanistan. Membership in unions is the norm in Sweden. People want to be in unions. I want to be in my union. We feel good about them and employers (who respect our model) feel good about it too because it is cooperative. For many reasons, the US has a model which is not cooperative but built on bitter enmity. This is repeated throughout the nation with e.g. cars vs bikes. We do not have that here. This is Musk bringing all his prejudice to a bunch of countries he doesn't understand the norms and culture of.
- andsoitis 3y ago
  >> don't go down well in Europe. > Exactly. This is about our entire model under threat. And it will be Tesla's Afghanistan. Membership in unions is the norm in Sweden. Unionization rates differ significantly across European countries. While the unionization rate in the Sweden is quite high at 65.2% (as of 2019), it is much lower in Germany at 16.3% and even lower in France at 8.9%. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1356735/labor-unions-most-unionized-countries-worldwide/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1356735/labor-unions-mos...
  - emptysongglass 3y ago
    I was specifically speaking about the Nordic Model of which I am a member and a citizen. I could have been more clear but by "my" I meant as a citizen of a country participating in the Nordic Model. What the rest of Europe does is up to them. Unions are foundational to our (Scandinavia's) way of life. This fight ends with Tesla either agreeing to our model or losing our entire market.
    - andsoitis 3y ago
      To put into context, Tesla only employs 120 people in Sweden.
      - emptysongglass 3y ago
        [flagged]
  - pgeorgi 3y ago
    There are enough other social norms that US companies can bloody their nose on in other European countries. As for strikes in particular: France doesn't require a union vote to engage in a strike to do so with far-reaching protections (2 employees fighting for an employment-related change seem to suffice from my cursory reading), so the French can strike without needing to be unionized. And boy, do they strike...
  - xorcist 3y ago
    The French system is not at all like the Nordic system. It is much closer to the American system, only with stronger unions. The Swedish almost never go on strikes, with very few exceptions.
ajross 3y ago
> Aggressive American union busting tactics don't go down well in Europe. But... Tesla never even got that far. They just hired some people who apparently wanted the jobs? No one got fired or threatened, no bribes are alleged. It really seems like IF Metall fired first, no?
- Hikikomori 3y ago
  Tesla has refused to negotiate for over 5 years.
  - ajross 3y ago
    With who though? Not their workers. Can you cite coverage of the "union busting" activities you're talking about?
    - pydry 3y ago
      https://archive.is/gXGSn https://archive.is/gXGSn
      - ajross 3y ago
        There is nothing remotely like "union busting" alleged in that article (which is quite good, and largely supports my belief that this is an unreasonable escalation by Swedish labor; so much so that I maybe question if you actually read it?).
        pydry 3y ago
        I linked to it because I thought you may not be familiar with this dispute. I'm puzzled. Do you think when he flew in workers from other countries that this was not a strikebreaking tactic or are you saying that this did not happen?
        xorcist 3y ago
        Unreasonable may be in the eye of the beholder. It is however completely expected. If anything, they waited much longer than usual. This is pretty much a school book example how labor conflicts go. The next steps of the conflict are also expected and known well in advance. The only problem is that nobody seems to be willing to inform their higher ups at Tesla what is happening.

cardy31 3y ago

My understanding is that the various unions view Tesla’s actions as a threat to how labour works in Sweden. There apparently isn’t even a minimum wage in the country as everything is governed by these collective agreements. So if they let Tesla come in and not play by the rules it could open the floodgates for other large corporations to come in and do the same, slowly eroding the system.

andsoitis 3y ago
> So if they let Tesla come in and not play by the rules Tesla complies with the country's laws, no?
- sjsdaiuasgdia 3y ago
  The other companies and unions are also complying with the country's laws, and they're exercising their choice to not do business with a company that is choosing to operate in a way that contradicts the existing social structures.
- capableweb 3y ago
  There are laws and there are norms. In Sweden, both are equally important and you'll get left out if you break either. It's sad in a lot of cases, as it removes some individuality, but it's how the country been operating for a long time. Expecting to run a company against the norms in a culture that so heavily leans on norms is bound to create conflict, which is what we're seeing here.
- sakjur 3y ago
  And so do the unions. The law takes a hands off approach to regulating the conditions of workers, but that goes both ways. If Tesla avoids signing a collective bargaining agreement, the law won’t help the unions force them to, but it also won’t protect Tesla from the unions.
- veqz 3y ago
  Laws upheld by the state are the worst good way to maintain order. A much better way is to have the parties play nice with each other, build trust, and negotiate as equals. This allows for much better and more detailed agreements, for quicker reactions if market conditions changes, and for more flexibility within each economic sector. The fact that the Nordic countries operate in such a way no doubt contributes to these countries both having great standards of living, and being among the best in the world to start and run businesses in. Tesla doesn't play nice. They don't build trust, and they don't try to negotiate as equals. True, it is not illegal. It doesn't need to be. We have other ways to keep hostile actors from misbehaving. Strikes are one of those ways.

piva00 3y ago

Tesla brought that unto themselves when they brought in scabs. That's the most egregious act against labour in the Nordics, from that moment they destroyed any chance to be seen as coming into negotiations on a equal footing. You don't do that here, period. > but at the same time this kind of escalation, with all this economic disruption What is the economic disruption? There's no "economic disruption" because of Tesla in Sweden, it's negligible for the overall Swedish economy, stop that... Tesla fucked around, now it's finding out.

SwedishExpat 3y ago

> The workers in question are not in a union Some members of the Tesla servicing stations are members of a union but the numbers aren't public because an employer cannot ask who is in a union > IF Metall is the union being supported and merely wants to represent them Yes, IF Metall is the largest union for that type of work in Sweden. They do represent some employees. > more correctly, they don't want a non-union shop operating in their market Correct, no-one wants this because the entire labour system is built around collective agreements. Allowing companies to break these rules is bad. > Tesla needs to just cut a deal here Yep, or leave! Both works well, the only option that's not viable is to be allowed to break the Nordic/Swedish working model > all for the "benefit" of 160 (or whatever) unrepresented workers Some are represented > who aren't even part of the story and don't seem to be asking for union representation or higher wages or anything Again, Unions represent employees and all members of the company including non-union members can strike because it's illegal to ask or identify who is or isn't in a Union. Which is why this number of non-Union members is mostly made up rubbish by pro-Tesla sites, the number is unknown.