6 ms·

In a properly functioning country the responsible persons should already be imprisoned. Some governmental agencies were aware of that for at least half a year,

In a properly functioning country the responsible persons should already be imprisoned. Some governmental agencies were aware of that for at least half a year, but failed to act. The fact that source code was not immediately dumped and analyzed is the evidence of malevolence, corruption and intentionally putting people's lives at risk. Welcome to the dark side of Poland - where citizens don't matter.

yard2010 3y ago
Corruption is not just the dark side of Poland, but the entire west IMHO
- xbar 3y ago
  The other 3 directions are corruption-free?
  - gattilorenz 3y ago
    can't speak for the other continents but there is very little corruption in Antarctica, so I guess if you go South enough, it is actually better
- konschubert 3y ago
  The west is the least corrupt part of the world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index#/media/File:Countries_by_Corruption_Perceptions_Index_(2022).svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index#/...
  - ddoice 3y ago
    perception != reality
    - hk__2 3y ago
      Perception is a proxy for reality, given that you can’t measure the latter.
    - bmacho 3y ago
      There are reasons for why we can assume that the west is the least corrupt area of the whole world.
    - gpvos 3y ago
      But for the average person, perception does influence how likely they are themselves to take part in corruption, and that in turn does influence the total amount of corruption in a country. Actual corruption is very hard to measure, so perception of corruption is a reasonable thing to research since it is in many ways "the best you can do" to get some measure of actual corruption.
  - H8crilA 3y ago
    It baffles me that people don't realize just how bad it is in non democratic countries. Russia has FSB extorting shop owners for protection money, and even an occasional assassination is nothing particularly interesting there. Chinese companies have party cells in management. Venezuela or many African countries need to hire foreign contractors (sometimes Western :) ) so that their heads of state and other VIPs do not get killed by their coworkers. The Red Sea has actual pirates. Lebanon failed to remove kilotons of explosive ammonia nitrate for years, until it eventually blew up the capital. I could go on and on, but you can see how this compares to "train company bricked a train and it's a major scandal".
  - waffleiron 3y ago
    Note from that wikipedia article >The Index only measures public sector corruption, ignoring the private sector. This, for instance, means the well-publicized Libor scandal, Odebrecht case and the VW emissions scandal are not counted as corrupt actions.
    - konschubert 3y ago
      Because corruption is when state power is abused. When private companies do illegal shit it’s just a crime.
      - waffleiron 3y ago
        There is no requirement for it to be "state" power, please look up the definition.
        konschubert 3y ago
        Okay, whatever. Pretty sure they private sector corruption isn’t worse in the west than in other parts of the world but if you want to disagree I won’t be able to change your mind
- master-lincoln 3y ago
  I wanted to get numbers on this, but naturally it's not feasible to get accurate numbers on corruption happening. I found the Corruption Perceptions Index which seems to be the closest we have in quantization. By measuring perceptions of corruption, as opposed to corruption itself, the Index may simply be reinforcing existing stereotypes and cliches though. But according to their results the "west" has the least perceived corruption. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index
- gpvos 3y ago
  Yes, the west is corrupt. The rest is worse though, and less ashamed of it.
h2odragon 3y ago
"the responsible persons" ... hmmm. Who would that be? The programmer who implemented the code? Do you think they thunk these tricks up? They was just following orders. The manager of the programming team, who set these tricks as things that needed to be implemented? Again, just following orders. The "Cxx" Title people who directed that there be "some protection" in some way that got implemented as what we see? Did they specify these measures? Did they say "it should break if serviced by a competitor?" Unlikely. Thye wouldn't know how to be that specific, probably. Some middle manager, maybe a committee meeting, sketched out a "DRM" scheme with the specifics? What do you imagine that meeting looked like? "We've got a directive to secure the systems from outside tampering, what does that mean in terms of how the machine behaves?" Or does that bring us back down to the engineers again? ... the responsible part here isn't a person, its the company as a whole. Just as it took the collective efforts of everyone to make the train, it took their collective efforts to make it wrong. Corporate Death Penalty; perhaps. make it plain that we will no longer tolerate sill shenanigans like this.
- hk__2 3y ago
  > They was just following orders. In itself that’s not enough to be considered innocent.
- ponector 3y ago
  Everyone in FTX except SBF should be innocents then. They was just following orders.
- robryk 3y ago
  That would be at least everyone knowingly involved with who is a professional engineer.
- machiaweliczny 3y ago
  IMO responsible is enginer and everyone up management chain + possibly peers if engineer part of a team. And those people should have a trial.
- krisoft 3y ago
  > "the responsible persons" ... hmmm. Who would that be? But that is the thing. We do not know who is responsible without an investigation. We don't need to guess. The local responsible agency should get a warrant and take a copy of their code repo and their internal comms. And then they need to spend the time (call in experts if needed) to figure out what happened and who was involved. If it is normal code development you can find all the paperwork which documents the change. If they tried to disguise it, (which they might have, or might not) then that is some maffioso stuff and you take the tools police use to break up organised crime groups. You take a low level person who you can incriminate and you flip them. You show them that you have enough to send them to a prison for years and offer them the opportunity to cooperate.
jakozaur 3y ago
Well, justice takes time and this is a complex novel case. I would rather have a system that is right than prematurely put innocent behind bars. However, if the allegations turn out to be true, which seems to have a decent probability, they could charge them with a criminal offence. There is Article 254a in the Polish Penal Code. If you obstruct critical elements of infrastructure such as trains, you can face between 6 months to 8 years in prison.

yard2010 3y ago

Corruption is not just the dark side of Poland, but the entire west IMHO

xbar 3y ago
The other 3 directions are corruption-free?
- gattilorenz 3y ago
  can't speak for the other continents but there is very little corruption in Antarctica, so I guess if you go South enough, it is actually better
konschubert 3y ago
The west is the least corrupt part of the world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index#/media/File:Countries_by_Corruption_Perceptions_Index_(2022).svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index#/...
- ddoice 3y ago
  perception != reality
  - hk__2 3y ago
    Perception is a proxy for reality, given that you can’t measure the latter.
  - bmacho 3y ago
    There are reasons for why we can assume that the west is the least corrupt area of the whole world.
  - gpvos 3y ago
    But for the average person, perception does influence how likely they are themselves to take part in corruption, and that in turn does influence the total amount of corruption in a country. Actual corruption is very hard to measure, so perception of corruption is a reasonable thing to research since it is in many ways "the best you can do" to get some measure of actual corruption.
- H8crilA 3y ago
  It baffles me that people don't realize just how bad it is in non democratic countries. Russia has FSB extorting shop owners for protection money, and even an occasional assassination is nothing particularly interesting there. Chinese companies have party cells in management. Venezuela or many African countries need to hire foreign contractors (sometimes Western :) ) so that their heads of state and other VIPs do not get killed by their coworkers. The Red Sea has actual pirates. Lebanon failed to remove kilotons of explosive ammonia nitrate for years, until it eventually blew up the capital. I could go on and on, but you can see how this compares to "train company bricked a train and it's a major scandal".
- waffleiron 3y ago
  Note from that wikipedia article >The Index only measures public sector corruption, ignoring the private sector. This, for instance, means the well-publicized Libor scandal, Odebrecht case and the VW emissions scandal are not counted as corrupt actions.
  - konschubert 3y ago
    Because corruption is when state power is abused. When private companies do illegal shit it’s just a crime.
    - waffleiron 3y ago
      There is no requirement for it to be "state" power, please look up the definition.
      - konschubert 3y ago
        Okay, whatever. Pretty sure they private sector corruption isn’t worse in the west than in other parts of the world but if you want to disagree I won’t be able to change your mind
master-lincoln 3y ago
I wanted to get numbers on this, but naturally it's not feasible to get accurate numbers on corruption happening. I found the Corruption Perceptions Index which seems to be the closest we have in quantization. By measuring perceptions of corruption, as opposed to corruption itself, the Index may simply be reinforcing existing stereotypes and cliches though. But according to their results the "west" has the least perceived corruption. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index
gpvos 3y ago
Yes, the west is corrupt. The rest is worse though, and less ashamed of it.

h2odragon 3y ago

"the responsible persons" ... hmmm. Who would that be? The programmer who implemented the code? Do you think they thunk these tricks up? They was just following orders. The manager of the programming team, who set these tricks as things that needed to be implemented? Again, just following orders. The "Cxx" Title people who directed that there be "some protection" in some way that got implemented as what we see? Did they specify these measures? Did they say "it should break if serviced by a competitor?" Unlikely. Thye wouldn't know how to be that specific, probably. Some middle manager, maybe a committee meeting, sketched out a "DRM" scheme with the specifics? What do you imagine that meeting looked like? "We've got a directive to secure the systems from outside tampering, what does that mean in terms of how the machine behaves?" Or does that bring us back down to the engineers again? ... the responsible part here isn't a person, its the company as a whole. Just as it took the collective efforts of everyone to make the train, it took their collective efforts to make it wrong. Corporate Death Penalty; perhaps. make it plain that we will no longer tolerate sill shenanigans like this.

hk__2 3y ago
> They was just following orders. In itself that’s not enough to be considered innocent.
ponector 3y ago
Everyone in FTX except SBF should be innocents then. They was just following orders.
robryk 3y ago
That would be at least everyone knowingly involved with who is a professional engineer.
machiaweliczny 3y ago
IMO responsible is enginer and everyone up management chain + possibly peers if engineer part of a team. And those people should have a trial.
krisoft 3y ago
> "the responsible persons" ... hmmm. Who would that be? But that is the thing. We do not know who is responsible without an investigation. We don't need to guess. The local responsible agency should get a warrant and take a copy of their code repo and their internal comms. And then they need to spend the time (call in experts if needed) to figure out what happened and who was involved. If it is normal code development you can find all the paperwork which documents the change. If they tried to disguise it, (which they might have, or might not) then that is some maffioso stuff and you take the tools police use to break up organised crime groups. You take a low level person who you can incriminate and you flip them. You show them that you have enough to send them to a prison for years and offer them the opportunity to cooperate.

jakozaur 3y ago

Well, justice takes time and this is a complex novel case. I would rather have a system that is right than prematurely put innocent behind bars. However, if the allegations turn out to be true, which seems to have a decent probability, they could charge them with a criminal offence. There is Article 254a in the Polish Penal Code. If you obstruct critical elements of infrastructure such as trains, you can face between 6 months to 8 years in prison.