3 ms·

A lot of what Musk says and does sounds ridiculous. That doesn't make it wise to dismiss out of hand. I actually agree that a lot of unions reinforce an us-vs-

A lot of what Musk says and does sounds ridiculous. That doesn't make it wise to dismiss out of hand. I actually agree that a lot of unions reinforce an us-vs-them mentality that might be necessary in local disputes but certainly isn't as good as having everyone's incentives aligned. What I think Musk might be missing in this context is that European unions have a deep history in the guild system and are related not just to bargaining with employers but also disseminating best practices and standards, so they add a lot of value as well.

andsoitis 3y ago
> disseminating best practices and standards What is a good example?
- sofixa 3y ago
  Historically, artisans such as jewellery makers, butchers, etc. were part of a guild, which also provided training and apprenticeships.
  - andsoitis 3y ago
    > Historically, artisans such as jewellery makers, butchers, the claim was that unions, today, disseminate best practices that make up for lack of companies training their employees to be able to do their jobs well, which I'm skeptical about.
hospitalJail 3y ago
>a deep history in the guild system and are related not just to bargaining with employers but also disseminating best practices and standards, so they add a lot of value as well. This is the first time I've seen someone mention this as a good thing. Most of the time its mentioned in outdated regulations dragging out the economic output of Europe in favor of old people who don't want to use new technology. I think everyone who has worked in physical product company has heard a story about how European unions are slow and expensive which is why XYZ is done somewhere else. I actually like unions, I just found it silly to think that the guild system and the laws that resulted from union's corrupting the government are good things.
- actionfromafar 3y ago
  The German industry inherits parts of the guild system too, even more than in Sweden. It's not all bad.
InCityDreams 3y ago
I'm in a far away eu country. I am surprised at the amount of support for the unions there is on this. From all sides. Don't forget- a country may have a rw .gov - that doesn't necessarily equate to the majority supporting them, or their pov's. We'd mostly just like a decent wage.
- suoduandao3 3y ago
  I actually viscerally dislike unions, due to my two experiences of having to work with them. But I know they can be good from my mother's testimony of her own union, and it's her historical take on how unions first formed that I shared above. Ultimately, I think a qualified support of unions in principle is going to bring pro-union folks towards the center much more effectively than a denouncement.
emptysongglass 3y ago
> I actually agree that a lot of unions reinforce an us-vs-them mentality In America, yes. Painting Scandinavian unions as fomenting an us-vs-them mentality is more misunderstanding from people who don't understand what it's like to live and work here.
VoxPelli 3y ago
Unions in Sweden works closely with the industry to find good deals that makes both companies and workers prosper. Unions here know that if the companies doesn’t prosper, so won’t the people employed by it. So the industry and the unions negotiate agreements that ensures we have the strongest companies with the healthiest workers. Sure, one side represents the company leadership and the other the workers, but they have a shared goal and collaborate on that, knowing that government legislation would be worse for everyone and not be agile and adaptable to the needs of different industries.
xorcist 3y ago
Any unions on a European level are loosely connected support groups. Nothing else. Nordic unions are fundamentally different from for example the French, which are more like the American. Both organize workers, but from completely different perspectives and completely different roles in their respective economic systems. None of them have much to do with the guild systems of old. Some countries still have the guild systems intact.

andsoitis 3y ago

> disseminating best practices and standards What is a good example?

sofixa 3y ago
Historically, artisans such as jewellery makers, butchers, etc. were part of a guild, which also provided training and apprenticeships.
- andsoitis 3y ago
  > Historically, artisans such as jewellery makers, butchers, the claim was that unions, today, disseminate best practices that make up for lack of companies training their employees to be able to do their jobs well, which I'm skeptical about.

hospitalJail 3y ago

>a deep history in the guild system and are related not just to bargaining with employers but also disseminating best practices and standards, so they add a lot of value as well. This is the first time I've seen someone mention this as a good thing. Most of the time its mentioned in outdated regulations dragging out the economic output of Europe in favor of old people who don't want to use new technology. I think everyone who has worked in physical product company has heard a story about how European unions are slow and expensive which is why XYZ is done somewhere else. I actually like unions, I just found it silly to think that the guild system and the laws that resulted from union's corrupting the government are good things.

actionfromafar 3y ago
The German industry inherits parts of the guild system too, even more than in Sweden. It's not all bad.

InCityDreams 3y ago

I'm in a far away eu country. I am surprised at the amount of support for the unions there is on this. From all sides. Don't forget- a country may have a rw .gov - that doesn't necessarily equate to the majority supporting them, or their pov's. We'd mostly just like a decent wage.

suoduandao3 3y ago
I actually viscerally dislike unions, due to my two experiences of having to work with them. But I know they can be good from my mother's testimony of her own union, and it's her historical take on how unions first formed that I shared above. Ultimately, I think a qualified support of unions in principle is going to bring pro-union folks towards the center much more effectively than a denouncement.

emptysongglass 3y ago

> I actually agree that a lot of unions reinforce an us-vs-them mentality In America, yes. Painting Scandinavian unions as fomenting an us-vs-them mentality is more misunderstanding from people who don't understand what it's like to live and work here.

VoxPelli 3y ago

Unions in Sweden works closely with the industry to find good deals that makes both companies and workers prosper. Unions here know that if the companies doesn’t prosper, so won’t the people employed by it. So the industry and the unions negotiate agreements that ensures we have the strongest companies with the healthiest workers. Sure, one side represents the company leadership and the other the workers, but they have a shared goal and collaborate on that, knowing that government legislation would be worse for everyone and not be agile and adaptable to the needs of different industries.

xorcist 3y ago

Any unions on a European level are loosely connected support groups. Nothing else. Nordic unions are fundamentally different from for example the French, which are more like the American. Both organize workers, but from completely different perspectives and completely different roles in their respective economic systems. None of them have much to do with the guild systems of old. Some countries still have the guild systems intact.