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> Musk said last week: “I disagree with the idea of unions. I just don’t like anything which creates a lords-and-peasants kind of thing.” This sounds ridiculou

> Musk said last week: “I disagree with the idea of unions. I just don’t like anything which creates a lords-and-peasants kind of thing.” This sounds ridiculous.

tallanvor 3y ago
Of course it's ridiculous. Unions have historically been key to helping equalize the power between employers and employees. Musk knows this and it's clear that he thinks of people working for his companies as peasants that only deserve what he's willing to dole out.
- port515 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - Hikikomori 3y ago
    The Nordics, famously bankrupt for almost 100 years.
- nprateem 3y ago
  I think he meant he doesn't like when the peasants rise up against the lords.
- hospitalJail 3y ago
  My wife owns a company, it boggles my mind how the employees underestimate their strength. They work for fractions and they are necessary for the company. If a worker knows an owner is desperate, the worker can win. The opposite is true too.
  - mission_failed 3y ago
    An individual has families to feed and mortgages to pay
suoduandao3 3y ago
A lot of what Musk says and does sounds ridiculous. That doesn't make it wise to dismiss out of hand. I actually agree that a lot of unions reinforce an us-vs-them mentality that might be necessary in local disputes but certainly isn't as good as having everyone's incentives aligned. What I think Musk might be missing in this context is that European unions have a deep history in the guild system and are related not just to bargaining with employers but also disseminating best practices and standards, so they add a lot of value as well.
- andsoitis 3y ago
  > disseminating best practices and standards What is a good example?
  - sofixa 3y ago
    Historically, artisans such as jewellery makers, butchers, etc. were part of a guild, which also provided training and apprenticeships.
    - andsoitis 3y ago
      > Historically, artisans such as jewellery makers, butchers, the claim was that unions, today, disseminate best practices that make up for lack of companies training their employees to be able to do their jobs well, which I'm skeptical about.
- hospitalJail 3y ago
  >a deep history in the guild system and are related not just to bargaining with employers but also disseminating best practices and standards, so they add a lot of value as well. This is the first time I've seen someone mention this as a good thing. Most of the time its mentioned in outdated regulations dragging out the economic output of Europe in favor of old people who don't want to use new technology. I think everyone who has worked in physical product company has heard a story about how European unions are slow and expensive which is why XYZ is done somewhere else. I actually like unions, I just found it silly to think that the guild system and the laws that resulted from union's corrupting the government are good things.
Zobat 3y ago
More like; Unions give the peasants power when negotiating with the lords. I guess he knows that and I guess that is the real reason he dislikes them.
- Geezus_42 3y ago
  Exactly
jillesvangurp 3y ago
He probably said quite a bit more than just that. If you extract just one sentence from somebody's position, you can make anyone look ridiculous. Looking at this from a distance and without picking sides, I can see both sides have a point and a bigger agenda. The actual conflict seems like it is a sideshow to this bigger agenda. In Scandinavia the unions are historically very strong. Strong as in they are mostly socialist leaning countries where the socialists have set policies for decades backed by very strong unions that dictate how companies operate. Not just Tesla, all companies. The message is fall in line, or else we'll cripple your company. And it's a message not just to Tesla but to all companies. One little problem though, Sweden doesn't actually have a socialist government currently. Neither does Denmark. And Norway has a minority socialist government coalition. So, socialists are fresh out of power all over Scandinavia and struggling a bit. Also as Tesla workers aren't unionized. These unions aren't representing those workers directly. This is part of their grudge. So, unions feel a need to assert themselves and reclaim some power. And they are using Tesla to do it. Perfect company for fanning the outrage a little and Elon Musk is always happy to offend anyone with incendiary statements. But you have to see it for what this is: political posturing by the unions. With Tesla the agenda is that they are a multinational and they are investing billions world wide in creating giga-factories and lots of employment and they are looking to get the best deals for this. Governments are lobbying them heavily for being the next giga factory site. So, what's the signal Elon Musk is giving off with to those governments by doing this in Sweden? Get the unions of my back if you want my money. So, he's happy to let this escalate a little. It works wonders elsewhere. The big picture for him is getting favorable conditions to build his next giga factory elsewhere in Europe. The Swedish are just pawns in that game. My guess is he'll ultimately fold in some way to keep the Scandinavian market going. But forget about a Swedish giga-factory happening.
- qarl 3y ago
  > He probably said quite a bit more than just that. Yes, this is also the conversation where he said "Go fuck yourself. Go. Fuck. Yourself."
- jamespo 3y ago
  Unions getting the best deal for their workers is "political posturing"?
Geezus_42 3y ago
He " do[es]n’t like anything which creates a lords-and-peasants kind of thing", except the system that made him a lord.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
rsynnott 3y ago
… I’m not even sure what he’s getting at. Are multinational corporations the exploited proletariat in this analogy?
- AYBABTME 3y ago
  It creates two castes in the company, management and unionized workers. Aristocrats and the peasant workers.
  - ceejayoz 3y ago
    In contrast to a non-union shop, where there's... management and ununionized workers? With every individual worker in their own powerless little caste of one?
  - sjsdaiuasgdia 3y ago
    Without unions you already have the management and worker castes. Source: I've worked in non-union jobs for 20+ years. What unions do is provide an opportunity for the workers to collectively apply power. Of course, there's a lot of nuance in the implementations, and of course people can be corrupt as hell. But in no way, shape, or form did unions create the management/worker caste split. Holy hell that requires some twisted logic.
    - AYBABTME 3y ago
      I'm just presenting the argument, which can be made. Reasonable people will disagree. In my particular experience, I always hated working unionized jobs I had and much preferred being a free actor with minimal fuss. I don't feel like "management versus workers" is a real divide in most non-union jobs I had (in which case you could say that systematizing the difference materializes the difference). But I also think it would likely be very different in different companies and industries. Unions aren't for me and I think they've had their use in the past, and I'm ambivalent as to their necessity in modern times (since governments now enforce a good set of minimums).
  - VoxPelli 3y ago
buro9 3y ago
> “I disagree with the idea of unions. I just don’t like anything which creates a lords-and-peasants kind of thing.” Says the oligarch to the masses. That word is often used in only a post-Soviet context, but the word is Greek and far older than the Soviet Union, and the Wikipedia page has a pretty clear definition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligarchy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligarchy and whilst the word triggers near-allergic reactions from Americans it does seem to reflect the power control in the US recently.

> Musk said last week: “I disagree with the idea of unions. I just don’t like anything which creates a lords-and-peasants kind of thing.” This sounds ridiculous.

tallanvor 3y ago

Of course it's ridiculous. Unions have historically been key to helping equalize the power between employers and employees. Musk knows this and it's clear that he thinks of people working for his companies as peasants that only deserve what he's willing to dole out.

port515 3y ago
[flagged]
- Hikikomori 3y ago
  The Nordics, famously bankrupt for almost 100 years.
nprateem 3y ago
I think he meant he doesn't like when the peasants rise up against the lords.
hospitalJail 3y ago
My wife owns a company, it boggles my mind how the employees underestimate their strength. They work for fractions and they are necessary for the company. If a worker knows an owner is desperate, the worker can win. The opposite is true too.
- mission_failed 3y ago
  An individual has families to feed and mortgages to pay

suoduandao3 3y ago

A lot of what Musk says and does sounds ridiculous. That doesn't make it wise to dismiss out of hand. I actually agree that a lot of unions reinforce an us-vs-them mentality that might be necessary in local disputes but certainly isn't as good as having everyone's incentives aligned. What I think Musk might be missing in this context is that European unions have a deep history in the guild system and are related not just to bargaining with employers but also disseminating best practices and standards, so they add a lot of value as well.

andsoitis 3y ago
> disseminating best practices and standards What is a good example?
- sofixa 3y ago
  Historically, artisans such as jewellery makers, butchers, etc. were part of a guild, which also provided training and apprenticeships.
  - andsoitis 3y ago
    > Historically, artisans such as jewellery makers, butchers, the claim was that unions, today, disseminate best practices that make up for lack of companies training their employees to be able to do their jobs well, which I'm skeptical about.
hospitalJail 3y ago
>a deep history in the guild system and are related not just to bargaining with employers but also disseminating best practices and standards, so they add a lot of value as well. This is the first time I've seen someone mention this as a good thing. Most of the time its mentioned in outdated regulations dragging out the economic output of Europe in favor of old people who don't want to use new technology. I think everyone who has worked in physical product company has heard a story about how European unions are slow and expensive which is why XYZ is done somewhere else. I actually like unions, I just found it silly to think that the guild system and the laws that resulted from union's corrupting the government are good things.

Zobat 3y ago

More like; Unions give the peasants power when negotiating with the lords. I guess he knows that and I guess that is the real reason he dislikes them.

Geezus_42 3y ago
Exactly

jillesvangurp 3y ago

He probably said quite a bit more than just that. If you extract just one sentence from somebody's position, you can make anyone look ridiculous. Looking at this from a distance and without picking sides, I can see both sides have a point and a bigger agenda. The actual conflict seems like it is a sideshow to this bigger agenda. In Scandinavia the unions are historically very strong. Strong as in they are mostly socialist leaning countries where the socialists have set policies for decades backed by very strong unions that dictate how companies operate. Not just Tesla, all companies. The message is fall in line, or else we'll cripple your company. And it's a message not just to Tesla but to all companies. One little problem though, Sweden doesn't actually have a socialist government currently. Neither does Denmark. And Norway has a minority socialist government coalition. So, socialists are fresh out of power all over Scandinavia and struggling a bit. Also as Tesla workers aren't unionized. These unions aren't representing those workers directly. This is part of their grudge. So, unions feel a need to assert themselves and reclaim some power. And they are using Tesla to do it. Perfect company for fanning the outrage a little and Elon Musk is always happy to offend anyone with incendiary statements. But you have to see it for what this is: political posturing by the unions. With Tesla the agenda is that they are a multinational and they are investing billions world wide in creating giga-factories and lots of employment and they are looking to get the best deals for this. Governments are lobbying them heavily for being the next giga factory site. So, what's the signal Elon Musk is giving off with to those governments by doing this in Sweden? Get the unions of my back if you want my money. So, he's happy to let this escalate a little. It works wonders elsewhere. The big picture for him is getting favorable conditions to build his next giga factory elsewhere in Europe. The Swedish are just pawns in that game. My guess is he'll ultimately fold in some way to keep the Scandinavian market going. But forget about a Swedish giga-factory happening.

qarl 3y ago
> He probably said quite a bit more than just that. Yes, this is also the conversation where he said "Go fuck yourself. Go. Fuck. Yourself."
jamespo 3y ago
Unions getting the best deal for their workers is "political posturing"?

Geezus_42 3y ago

He " do[es]n’t like anything which creates a lords-and-peasants kind of thing", except the system that made him a lord.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

rsynnott 3y ago

… I’m not even sure what he’s getting at. Are multinational corporations the exploited proletariat in this analogy?

AYBABTME 3y ago
It creates two castes in the company, management and unionized workers. Aristocrats and the peasant workers.
- ceejayoz 3y ago
  In contrast to a non-union shop, where there's... management and ununionized workers? With every individual worker in their own powerless little caste of one?
- sjsdaiuasgdia 3y ago
  Without unions you already have the management and worker castes. Source: I've worked in non-union jobs for 20+ years. What unions do is provide an opportunity for the workers to collectively apply power. Of course, there's a lot of nuance in the implementations, and of course people can be corrupt as hell. But in no way, shape, or form did unions create the management/worker caste split. Holy hell that requires some twisted logic.
  - AYBABTME 3y ago
    I'm just presenting the argument, which can be made. Reasonable people will disagree. In my particular experience, I always hated working unionized jobs I had and much preferred being a free actor with minimal fuss. I don't feel like "management versus workers" is a real divide in most non-union jobs I had (in which case you could say that systematizing the difference materializes the difference). But I also think it would likely be very different in different companies and industries. Unions aren't for me and I think they've had their use in the past, and I'm ambivalent as to their necessity in modern times (since governments now enforce a good set of minimums).
- VoxPelli 3y ago

buro9 3y ago

> “I disagree with the idea of unions. I just don’t like anything which creates a lords-and-peasants kind of thing.” Says the oligarch to the masses. That word is often used in only a post-Soviet context, but the word is Greek and far older than the Soviet Union, and the Wikipedia page has a pretty clear definition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligarchy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligarchy and whilst the word triggers near-allergic reactions from Americans it does seem to reflect the power control in the US recently.