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Cycling infrastructure is much cheaper than car infrastructure. Way less material needed (narrower paths, less foundation) and much lower maintenance costs. In

Cycling infrastructure is much cheaper than car infrastructure. Way less material needed (narrower paths, less foundation) and much lower maintenance costs. Initial investment per cyclist might seem high, but you need to build it before they come. And they come. Just look at Amsterdam (became a cycling city in the 70s) or Paris (started investing heavily in cycling infra a little less than 10 years ago).

robocat 3y ago
> cheap No way is it cheap. Figures for Christchurch: Building 101km of cycleways across Christchurch to cost $301m population 405000, So that is $750 per person, which is about 1% of median earnings for a year. Yes the spending is over many years, but so what. 3% of trips are by bicycle, so this is a pretty shitty deal for the other 97%: https://greaterchristchurch.org.nz/our-work/indicators/urban/travel-modetrip-length https://greaterchristchurch.org.nz/our-work/indicators/urban... People are not voting for this with their bicycle trips. This is just local government spending public money for rather unpopular outcomes.
- Tomis02 3y ago
  Your reply is in really bad faith. The person said "cheaper", not "cheap".
  - robocat 3y ago
    Fair enough. The points I made are just as relevant to "cheaper". costs/benefits need to be compared against population usage. You are not arguing against the data I gave.
    - jochem9 3y ago
      If you build cycling infrastructure, you get more cyclists. 'Build it and they will come' turned out to be true in the examples I gave (and there are many other examples out there). The question is if you want increase that 3%. For me it's a no-brainer, given the benefits.
- eesmith 3y ago
  So, $3 million/km? How much does a road cost? "The 2km stretch of the Bayfair to Baypark upgrade on SH2 south of Tauranga was already costing $70 million per kilometre - two to three times more than usual." https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/425683/highway-costing-70-million-per-km-set-to-get-even-more-expensive-due-to-pumice https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/425683/highway-costing-7... That's about $25 million per km in the usual, or about 10x more expensive than this bike path. "The cost to build a new road link in Christchurch’s west has ballooned 41% to $25 million." says https://www.neighbourly.co.nz/public/christchurch/broomfield-hei-hei/message/69770340 https://www.neighbourly.co.nz/public/christchurch/broomfield... and that appears to be under 2km of road works., so $30 million/km. "The $290m 16-kilometre Northern Corridor motorway extension, funded by the government, cost $18m a kilometre to build, while the second stage of the southern motorway worked out at $20m per kilometre." says https://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/124611551/building-101km-of-cycleways-across-christchurch-to-cost-301m https://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/124611551/building-10... In the US it costs about US (20230) $4 million/mile to put in a new small urban road. https://kobobuilding.com/cost-to-build-a-road-per-mile/ https://kobobuilding.com/cost-to-build-a-road-per-mile/ . That's about NZ$4 million/km, if I did the conversion correctly, and still more than the bike path. > that is $750 per person Now do the same calculation for roads. Also, "About $187m of that will come from the Government’s coffers, not ratepayers" says https://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/127422028/christchurchs-controversial-301-million-cycleway-network-ramps-up https://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/127422028/christchurc... so your math should be adjusted. I work it out to ((301_000_000 - 187_000_000) / 405_000) + (187_000_000 / 5_258_000) = NZ$317 per Christchurch resident
  - robocat 3y ago
    Arguing that roads are more expensive is roger irrelevant. > 10x more expensive than this bike path. And faaar less than 1/10th of trips goes to bike paths. Cost per actual trip is what matters. What I see is a few busy bike lanes (say city centre). And some virtually unused bikelanes e.g. there are very nice expensive cycle lanes next to the Southern Motorway - but their cost per trip is surely much much higher than the cost of the Motorway per trip costs. I.e. your argument isn't just wrong, it's likely wrong in the wrong direction. And some of that expensive road costs are for cyclists e.g. a costly ROAD intersection designed for bikes (near a university). The new redesign to fix the cockup is more $$$. One intersection - and designing for bikes was the cause for the costs (the externalities were also high). https://i.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/123202841/traffic-lights-at-christchurchs-controversial-20pole-intersection-to-be-reduced https://i.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/123202841/traffic-light... Cyclelanes get road barriers e.g. road to Lyttelton has a new one. Fairly accounting for costs added to roads matters. > NZ$317 Aaaaand just where do you think those government taxes come from eh? You are trying to imply that the difference between $750 and $317 is free money not paid for by Christchurch tax payers. My bigger point is that the reality needs to be rationally acknowledged. Ignoring usage is putting head in sand.

robocat 3y ago

> cheap No way is it cheap. Figures for Christchurch: Building 101km of cycleways across Christchurch to cost $301m population 405000, So that is $750 per person, which is about 1% of median earnings for a year. Yes the spending is over many years, but so what. 3% of trips are by bicycle, so this is a pretty shitty deal for the other 97%: https://greaterchristchurch.org.nz/our-work/indicators/urban/travel-modetrip-length https://greaterchristchurch.org.nz/our-work/indicators/urban... People are not voting for this with their bicycle trips. This is just local government spending public money for rather unpopular outcomes.

Tomis02 3y ago
Your reply is in really bad faith. The person said "cheaper", not "cheap".
- robocat 3y ago
  Fair enough. The points I made are just as relevant to "cheaper". costs/benefits need to be compared against population usage. You are not arguing against the data I gave.
  - jochem9 3y ago
    If you build cycling infrastructure, you get more cyclists. 'Build it and they will come' turned out to be true in the examples I gave (and there are many other examples out there). The question is if you want increase that 3%. For me it's a no-brainer, given the benefits.
eesmith 3y ago
So, $3 million/km? How much does a road cost? "The 2km stretch of the Bayfair to Baypark upgrade on SH2 south of Tauranga was already costing $70 million per kilometre - two to three times more than usual." https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/425683/highway-costing-70-million-per-km-set-to-get-even-more-expensive-due-to-pumice https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/425683/highway-costing-7... That's about $25 million per km in the usual, or about 10x more expensive than this bike path. "The cost to build a new road link in Christchurch’s west has ballooned 41% to $25 million." says https://www.neighbourly.co.nz/public/christchurch/broomfield-hei-hei/message/69770340 https://www.neighbourly.co.nz/public/christchurch/broomfield... and that appears to be under 2km of road works., so $30 million/km. "The $290m 16-kilometre Northern Corridor motorway extension, funded by the government, cost $18m a kilometre to build, while the second stage of the southern motorway worked out at $20m per kilometre." says https://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/124611551/building-101km-of-cycleways-across-christchurch-to-cost-301m https://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/124611551/building-10... In the US it costs about US (20230) $4 million/mile to put in a new small urban road. https://kobobuilding.com/cost-to-build-a-road-per-mile/ https://kobobuilding.com/cost-to-build-a-road-per-mile/ . That's about NZ$4 million/km, if I did the conversion correctly, and still more than the bike path. > that is $750 per person Now do the same calculation for roads. Also, "About $187m of that will come from the Government’s coffers, not ratepayers" says https://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/127422028/christchurchs-controversial-301-million-cycleway-network-ramps-up https://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/127422028/christchurc... so your math should be adjusted. I work it out to ((301_000_000 - 187_000_000) / 405_000) + (187_000_000 / 5_258_000) = NZ$317 per Christchurch resident
- robocat 3y ago
  Arguing that roads are more expensive is roger irrelevant. > 10x more expensive than this bike path. And faaar less than 1/10th of trips goes to bike paths. Cost per actual trip is what matters. What I see is a few busy bike lanes (say city centre). And some virtually unused bikelanes e.g. there are very nice expensive cycle lanes next to the Southern Motorway - but their cost per trip is surely much much higher than the cost of the Motorway per trip costs. I.e. your argument isn't just wrong, it's likely wrong in the wrong direction. And some of that expensive road costs are for cyclists e.g. a costly ROAD intersection designed for bikes (near a university). The new redesign to fix the cockup is more $$$. One intersection - and designing for bikes was the cause for the costs (the externalities were also high). https://i.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/123202841/traffic-lights-at-christchurchs-controversial-20pole-intersection-to-be-reduced https://i.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/123202841/traffic-light... Cyclelanes get road barriers e.g. road to Lyttelton has a new one. Fairly accounting for costs added to roads matters. > NZ$317 Aaaaand just where do you think those government taxes come from eh? You are trying to imply that the difference between $750 and $317 is free money not paid for by Christchurch tax payers. My bigger point is that the reality needs to be rationally acknowledged. Ignoring usage is putting head in sand.