4 ms·

That's 18.6 mph, slower than the speed limit around US schools. Is the expectation people will go 20 or 25 mph (32 to 40 km/h) in reality?

ls612 3y ago
No, the expectation is that the government can put up speed cameras everywhere and make a shit ton of money.
- Nthringas 3y ago
  i'm pretty sure that's only a legit business model in the usa
  - worg 3y ago
    Nope that's a business model in Mexico too
  - mynegation 3y ago
    Oh let me tell you about a speed camera on Parkside drive in Toronto that makes city literal millions every year.
  - askvictor 3y ago
    Australia has entered the chat
  - sva_ 3y ago
    The 100k population German city I live in recently reported they made 2 million Euro in this year so far (using speed cameras alone.) That doesn't seem like nothing.
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      2 million / year is 5500 euros / day or about 100 infractions. On a city of 100k I'd say they missed a couple ;)
      - sva_ 3y ago
        A lot are actually missed by not getting a good photo and probably other reasons. I've seen the flashing light around 4 to 5 times already, but have only ever gotten 1 ticket (where they changed the speed from 50 to 30 and immediately put up a camera - bastards.)
        jacquesm 3y ago
        They probably get great photos but the camera may be set to the actual limit whereas the fine only comes when you exceed that limit by a certain amount.
  - twelve40 3y ago
    > i'm pretty sure that's only a legit business model in the usa lolwut? i haven't gotten a single camera-based ticket, ever - many decades of driving in the US - unlike say Italy where every time i drive (about once in 5 years) i seem to break some stupid minor rule and get a photo ticket
- Teever 3y ago
  Why the cynical take? Do you really think that in a country with extensive rail and a bicycle culture as a national identity that the reason for reduced speed limits is a cash grab? Is it so alien to you to consider that perhaps the country is implementing these kinds of laws to reduce the harmful effects of automobiles with the ultimate end game being the extinction of car culture?
  - ls612 3y ago
    Because I see technology as a being used as a means to social control and authoritarian rule. Most HN commenters are perfectly willing to see this as well when it comes to DRM, remote attestation, secure boot, etc, but magically forget that when discussion of traffic and cars comes up.
    - piva00 3y ago
      It's not authoritarian rule and social control to limit the speed of death machines inside a dense city. I don't want fast cars in my city, I don't want the noise, the fatalities or injuries, nor the pollution. Cars are a privilege, you need a licence from the government to drive them, are you going to advocate for removing driver licencing as well? Because that's pretty much full government control over who can drive or not. Pretty authoritarian, no?
  - Kim_Bruning 3y ago
    The end goal is not the extinction of car culture. The end goal is to get everyone from A to B safely and swiftly, regardless of transport mode. Basically if you put Germans and Dutch people together, they'll argue which country has the best car infrastructure. The grass is greener on the other side. Dutch people say you can go faster on German roads, while Germans say that the dutch speed limits make traffic more smooth and logical. Either way, once you drive out to the highway you can theoretically lock the cruise control to 100 km/h [1] (including on intersections) until ~5-10 min from your destination.[2] That's not a bad country for cars! [1] Except eg. Amsterdam ring-road which is 80 km/h. Exception that proves the rule. [2] I did say theoretically. Roads ARE busy and you may need to tap the brakes sometimes. Though... in practice I'm willing to bet that on any given day some number of people actually manage to achieve this by accident. (outside rush hour and with a little luck)
quickthrower2 3y ago
That is also the speed of an elite runner. So even getting hit by a car at that speed is bad news.
- truculent 3y ago
  Bad news, but obviously better than 50. And > The probability of a pedestrian surviving an accident in which the car was moving at 30km/h is 95%
esperent 3y ago
The expectation is that people will go <=30km/h, just like in all the other 30km/hr zones around Europe.
remh 3y ago
People in Amsterdam use km/h not mph. From my experience in france, on 30km/h roads, people would drive anywhere between 30-40km/h, while on 50km/h roads, people would drive between 50 and 55km/h.
- vore 3y ago
  Isn't that what the parent comment said?
  - remh 3y ago
    I was just confused by the usage of mph in this context and interpreted parent's comment in a way that would mean amsterdam residents were using mph. I also wanted to provide a data point that does indeed go in the way of the parent regarding people going over the speed limit.
charcircuit 3y ago
In the US it wouldn't make sense. Spending 2 hours to go to the grocery store and back just on the travelling part would be a big commitment whenever you needed to go.
- quickthrower2 3y ago
  30km/h makes sense on urban roads. If you need to go 15-30km to get to your grocery store you probably live a lifestyle where you plan that trip, use a freezer and so on. Unless that trip happens to be a motorway/freeway. Fast motorways are incredibly safe because no pedestrians and energy absorbing crash barriers and traffic control/monitoring. There are exceptions e.g. where there is fog for example. Fast roads in cities should ideally be designed so it is really hard for pedestrians to get on them except at the intersections.
- Kim_Bruning 3y ago
  Amsterdam won't have just 30 km/h roads. Those are just for the last mile. On the other hand, in Amsterdam there's usually going to be some sort of grocery store somewhere in walking or biking distance; and a lot of train stations have grocery stores too, so you can just pick up some last minute shopping on the way back from work for instance.
- Tomis02 3y ago
  > Spending 2 hours to go to the grocery store and back That usually indicates your city is a huge suburbia with a few skyscrapers in the middle. Bad city design leads to bad results, and a higher speed limit won't solve your problems.
  - kermitdekikker 3y ago
    Indeed. Just to put a number on that, the average distance to a supermarket is 400 meter (~1300 feet) in Amsterdam.
    - Kim_Bruning 3y ago
      When giving rough estimates of distance, yards and meters are often close enough to substitute. (400 meters ~= 437 yards ~~= 400 yards)
caturopath 3y ago
I think the expectation is that they will eventually traffic calm the streets until people really go 30km/h. (Or speed a little, probably not 40 km/h.) FWIW, 20mph school zones seem to be becoming more common in the US.
- esperent 3y ago
  They use automated cameras on many roads and they will fine you for going over 30km/hr, from experience in Ireland. Although I think they are only that strict on problematic stretches. My mother got a fine for going 34km/hr in a 30 zone.
sva_ 3y ago
For one, your car's speedometer will underreport actual driving speed, then there's also around 10% tolerance usually. So if you go "35"kmh, you're still below limit.

ls612 3y ago

No, the expectation is that the government can put up speed cameras everywhere and make a shit ton of money.

Nthringas 3y ago
i'm pretty sure that's only a legit business model in the usa
- worg 3y ago
  Nope that's a business model in Mexico too
- mynegation 3y ago
  Oh let me tell you about a speed camera on Parkside drive in Toronto that makes city literal millions every year.
- askvictor 3y ago
  Australia has entered the chat
- sva_ 3y ago
  The 100k population German city I live in recently reported they made 2 million Euro in this year so far (using speed cameras alone.) That doesn't seem like nothing.
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    2 million / year is 5500 euros / day or about 100 infractions. On a city of 100k I'd say they missed a couple ;)
    - sva_ 3y ago
      A lot are actually missed by not getting a good photo and probably other reasons. I've seen the flashing light around 4 to 5 times already, but have only ever gotten 1 ticket (where they changed the speed from 50 to 30 and immediately put up a camera - bastards.)
      - jacquesm 3y ago
        They probably get great photos but the camera may be set to the actual limit whereas the fine only comes when you exceed that limit by a certain amount.
- twelve40 3y ago
  > i'm pretty sure that's only a legit business model in the usa lolwut? i haven't gotten a single camera-based ticket, ever - many decades of driving in the US - unlike say Italy where every time i drive (about once in 5 years) i seem to break some stupid minor rule and get a photo ticket
Teever 3y ago
Why the cynical take? Do you really think that in a country with extensive rail and a bicycle culture as a national identity that the reason for reduced speed limits is a cash grab? Is it so alien to you to consider that perhaps the country is implementing these kinds of laws to reduce the harmful effects of automobiles with the ultimate end game being the extinction of car culture?
- ls612 3y ago
  Because I see technology as a being used as a means to social control and authoritarian rule. Most HN commenters are perfectly willing to see this as well when it comes to DRM, remote attestation, secure boot, etc, but magically forget that when discussion of traffic and cars comes up.
  - piva00 3y ago
    It's not authoritarian rule and social control to limit the speed of death machines inside a dense city. I don't want fast cars in my city, I don't want the noise, the fatalities or injuries, nor the pollution. Cars are a privilege, you need a licence from the government to drive them, are you going to advocate for removing driver licencing as well? Because that's pretty much full government control over who can drive or not. Pretty authoritarian, no?
- Kim_Bruning 3y ago
  The end goal is not the extinction of car culture. The end goal is to get everyone from A to B safely and swiftly, regardless of transport mode. Basically if you put Germans and Dutch people together, they'll argue which country has the best car infrastructure. The grass is greener on the other side. Dutch people say you can go faster on German roads, while Germans say that the dutch speed limits make traffic more smooth and logical. Either way, once you drive out to the highway you can theoretically lock the cruise control to 100 km/h [1] (including on intersections) until ~5-10 min from your destination.[2] That's not a bad country for cars! [1] Except eg. Amsterdam ring-road which is 80 km/h. Exception that proves the rule. [2] I did say theoretically. Roads ARE busy and you may need to tap the brakes sometimes. Though... in practice I'm willing to bet that on any given day some number of people actually manage to achieve this by accident. (outside rush hour and with a little luck)

quickthrower2 3y ago

That is also the speed of an elite runner. So even getting hit by a car at that speed is bad news.

truculent 3y ago
Bad news, but obviously better than 50. And > The probability of a pedestrian surviving an accident in which the car was moving at 30km/h is 95%

esperent 3y ago

The expectation is that people will go <=30km/h, just like in all the other 30km/hr zones around Europe.

remh 3y ago

People in Amsterdam use km/h not mph. From my experience in france, on 30km/h roads, people would drive anywhere between 30-40km/h, while on 50km/h roads, people would drive between 50 and 55km/h.

vore 3y ago
Isn't that what the parent comment said?
- remh 3y ago
  I was just confused by the usage of mph in this context and interpreted parent's comment in a way that would mean amsterdam residents were using mph. I also wanted to provide a data point that does indeed go in the way of the parent regarding people going over the speed limit.

charcircuit 3y ago

In the US it wouldn't make sense. Spending 2 hours to go to the grocery store and back just on the travelling part would be a big commitment whenever you needed to go.

quickthrower2 3y ago
30km/h makes sense on urban roads. If you need to go 15-30km to get to your grocery store you probably live a lifestyle where you plan that trip, use a freezer and so on. Unless that trip happens to be a motorway/freeway. Fast motorways are incredibly safe because no pedestrians and energy absorbing crash barriers and traffic control/monitoring. There are exceptions e.g. where there is fog for example. Fast roads in cities should ideally be designed so it is really hard for pedestrians to get on them except at the intersections.
Kim_Bruning 3y ago
Amsterdam won't have just 30 km/h roads. Those are just for the last mile. On the other hand, in Amsterdam there's usually going to be some sort of grocery store somewhere in walking or biking distance; and a lot of train stations have grocery stores too, so you can just pick up some last minute shopping on the way back from work for instance.
Tomis02 3y ago
> Spending 2 hours to go to the grocery store and back That usually indicates your city is a huge suburbia with a few skyscrapers in the middle. Bad city design leads to bad results, and a higher speed limit won't solve your problems.
- kermitdekikker 3y ago
  Indeed. Just to put a number on that, the average distance to a supermarket is 400 meter (~1300 feet) in Amsterdam.
  - Kim_Bruning 3y ago
    When giving rough estimates of distance, yards and meters are often close enough to substitute. (400 meters ~= 437 yards ~~= 400 yards)

caturopath 3y ago

I think the expectation is that they will eventually traffic calm the streets until people really go 30km/h. (Or speed a little, probably not 40 km/h.) FWIW, 20mph school zones seem to be becoming more common in the US.

esperent 3y ago
They use automated cameras on many roads and they will fine you for going over 30km/hr, from experience in Ireland. Although I think they are only that strict on problematic stretches. My mother got a fine for going 34km/hr in a 30 zone.

sva_ 3y ago

For one, your car's speedometer will underreport actual driving speed, then there's also around 10% tolerance usually. So if you go "35"kmh, you're still below limit.