6 ms·

Learning Is More Important Than Knowing

78 points by latch 15y ago

trustfundbaby 15y ago
Good post, though, I should point out that some companies might not have the time to let a developer get up to speed on a particular technology, they they haven't used before.
- hippee-lee 15y ago
  For a true start up I agree with you, they do not have the time. I am guessing this is what you mean by some companies? For established companies with legacy code bases older than two years, there is always going to be a getting up to speed period. To pass smart people over because they chose the wrong buzz word for the focus of their last job (or the buzz words recently changed) is a great way to always have people that need to get up to speed on your team.
  - primatology 15y ago
    Google builds in a solid six months to get all new hires up to speed. Of course, that's the relaxed end of the spectrum. At a freshly-minted startup, I wouldn't be surprised if spending a week familiarizing yourself with the project's codebase (let alone the language/framework) was pushing it.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
SoftwareMaven 15y ago
As a hirer at a startup, I am far more interested in ability to learn than in current skills. In a startup, nobody knows what tomorrow may bring. I utilize ability to learn as insurance against unknown changes/pivots in the future. Every day brings new challenges. I don't want to be stuck in yesterday's world because my engineers don't know what today's world really looks like.
f4stjack 15y ago
Actually what you knew, except algorithm design, if else, loops and other metaprogramming essentials, is worth nil in the coding business. Anything you know specifically related to one language will quickly be outdated until you graduate or finish that book. "So you know z framework? Oh but this is version x.y and we practically wrote it from the ground up! Which makes your sql incantations explode with glee and errors. Mostly errors..." Knowledge can be gathered, can be learned. But you cannot "learn" learning.
- tensor 15y ago
  On the contrary, learning to learn is exactly what graduate school teaches.
  - f4stjack 15y ago
    This, I believe, depends on where you get your education. Graduate school teaches something in where I live but it is mostly memorizing the right information at the right time (like finals or visas) then you can safely forget it. If your graduate school eschewed rote learning, perfect. But there are some countries who still structure their educational system while thinking this kind of teaching means something...
h2s 15y ago
I think that sometimes companies mention trivial things like their choice of revision control software in their job listings as a kind of semi-deliberate way of saying "This job is intended for inexperienced developers. If you're thinking it's cute that we mentioned our VCS, you're too experienced (and expensive) for us."
- rollypolly 15y ago
  I always thought that was just filler. HR to engineer: "Your requirement list is too short, our ad won't look important enough." Engineer to HR: "Fine, here's some more buzzwords to fill-in the blank space."
chriszf 15y ago
Not that this is the case here (indeed, I <3 Karl Seguin), but I find this mantra being used by mediocre developers to cover their ignorance more and more these days. Yes, learning is more important than knowing, but that doesn't excuse you from knowing, especially the basics. Claim you're a senior web developer, and I expect you to know how to do CSS/JS/HTML. I expect you to have a reasonable idea of how to deploy your app to production. I expect you to know how to write raw sql to get around the leaky abstraction that is your ORM. The sad truth is that I've interviewed more than enough 'senior developers' who couldn't do any of these things. "I don't know, but I can learn," they say. You've been doing this for five years, shouldn't you have learned these things by now?
- sad_panda 15y ago
  Exactly. How do you separate the wheat from the chaff? How do you tell when a person actually gone through learning experiences (which is how one acquires knowledge) and isn't actually just padding their resume?
  - latch 15y ago
    I was going to include this like my my original post, not sure why I ultimately decided not to. But, I think to answer how to hire, I'd start with this simple post from 37 Signals: https://37signals.com/svn/posts/3071-why-we-dont-hire-programmers-based-on-puzzles-api-quizzes-math-riddles-or-other-parlor-tricks https://37signals.com/svn/posts/3071-why-we-dont-hire-progra...
- evoxed 15y ago
  Here to confirm the same thing from the school side. It may be true, but it's a terrible thing to tell yourself as an excuse for being ignorant or inattentive. Unfortunately I think teachers (at the undergraduate level anyway) are too complacent when it comes to this attitude and for some people it leaves them 4/5 years older and more mature, but not more skilled (except at Google or maybe JSTOR searches).
- marquis 15y ago
  Agreed. There is a difference between someone who has become an expert in any topic and can demonstrate a willingness to dig down into that space, and someone who has just taken the surface path. The former probably can learn, the latter may require more teaching effort than it's worth.
jackmcdade 15y ago
Not a great title. Integration > Application > Understanding > Information when it comes to learning. We can get all the information we want, and trivial things are easier to understand, but taking what we know and integrating it to our process is a crucial process.
swah 15y ago
So this guy wouldn't want to work on Google, Twitter or Amazon because they use Java?...

78 points by latch 15y ago

Good post, though, I should point out that some companies might not have the time to let a developer get up to speed on a particular technology, they they haven't used before.

hippee-lee 15y ago
For a true start up I agree with you, they do not have the time. I am guessing this is what you mean by some companies? For established companies with legacy code bases older than two years, there is always going to be a getting up to speed period. To pass smart people over because they chose the wrong buzz word for the focus of their last job (or the buzz words recently changed) is a great way to always have people that need to get up to speed on your team.
- primatology 15y ago
  Google builds in a solid six months to get all new hires up to speed. Of course, that's the relaxed end of the spectrum. At a freshly-minted startup, I wouldn't be surprised if spending a week familiarizing yourself with the project's codebase (let alone the language/framework) was pushing it.

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

SoftwareMaven 15y ago

As a hirer at a startup, I am far more interested in ability to learn than in current skills. In a startup, nobody knows what tomorrow may bring. I utilize ability to learn as insurance against unknown changes/pivots in the future. Every day brings new challenges. I don't want to be stuck in yesterday's world because my engineers don't know what today's world really looks like.

f4stjack 15y ago

Actually what you knew, except algorithm design, if else, loops and other metaprogramming essentials, is worth nil in the coding business. Anything you know specifically related to one language will quickly be outdated until you graduate or finish that book. "So you know z framework? Oh but this is version x.y and we practically wrote it from the ground up! Which makes your sql incantations explode with glee and errors. Mostly errors..." Knowledge can be gathered, can be learned. But you cannot "learn" learning.

tensor 15y ago
On the contrary, learning to learn is exactly what graduate school teaches.
- f4stjack 15y ago
  This, I believe, depends on where you get your education. Graduate school teaches something in where I live but it is mostly memorizing the right information at the right time (like finals or visas) then you can safely forget it. If your graduate school eschewed rote learning, perfect. But there are some countries who still structure their educational system while thinking this kind of teaching means something...

h2s 15y ago

I think that sometimes companies mention trivial things like their choice of revision control software in their job listings as a kind of semi-deliberate way of saying "This job is intended for inexperienced developers. If you're thinking it's cute that we mentioned our VCS, you're too experienced (and expensive) for us."

rollypolly 15y ago
I always thought that was just filler. HR to engineer: "Your requirement list is too short, our ad won't look important enough." Engineer to HR: "Fine, here's some more buzzwords to fill-in the blank space."

chriszf 15y ago

Not that this is the case here (indeed, I <3 Karl Seguin), but I find this mantra being used by mediocre developers to cover their ignorance more and more these days. Yes, learning is more important than knowing, but that doesn't excuse you from knowing, especially the basics. Claim you're a senior web developer, and I expect you to know how to do CSS/JS/HTML. I expect you to have a reasonable idea of how to deploy your app to production. I expect you to know how to write raw sql to get around the leaky abstraction that is your ORM. The sad truth is that I've interviewed more than enough 'senior developers' who couldn't do any of these things. "I don't know, but I can learn," they say. You've been doing this for five years, shouldn't you have learned these things by now?

sad_panda 15y ago
Exactly. How do you separate the wheat from the chaff? How do you tell when a person actually gone through learning experiences (which is how one acquires knowledge) and isn't actually just padding their resume?
- latch 15y ago
  I was going to include this like my my original post, not sure why I ultimately decided not to. But, I think to answer how to hire, I'd start with this simple post from 37 Signals: https://37signals.com/svn/posts/3071-why-we-dont-hire-programmers-based-on-puzzles-api-quizzes-math-riddles-or-other-parlor-tricks https://37signals.com/svn/posts/3071-why-we-dont-hire-progra...
evoxed 15y ago
Here to confirm the same thing from the school side. It may be true, but it's a terrible thing to tell yourself as an excuse for being ignorant or inattentive. Unfortunately I think teachers (at the undergraduate level anyway) are too complacent when it comes to this attitude and for some people it leaves them 4/5 years older and more mature, but not more skilled (except at Google or maybe JSTOR searches).
marquis 15y ago
Agreed. There is a difference between someone who has become an expert in any topic and can demonstrate a willingness to dig down into that space, and someone who has just taken the surface path. The former probably can learn, the latter may require more teaching effort than it's worth.

jackmcdade 15y ago

Not a great title. Integration > Application > Understanding > Information when it comes to learning. We can get all the information we want, and trivial things are easier to understand, but taking what we know and integrating it to our process is a crucial process.

swah 15y ago

So this guy wouldn't want to work on Google, Twitter or Amazon because they use Java?...