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And you think that Google actually deletes email when you tell it to? More likely they just mark it as deleted and retain it, in which case every email you ever

And you think that Google actually deletes email when you tell it to? More likely they just mark it as deleted and retain it, in which case every email you ever received regardless of whether you think it has been deleted may be available. If you want better privacy, install and manage your own mail server and encrypt everything.

jrockway 14y ago
Do you really think your shared host drops blocks when you delete them from your virtual disk, and do you really think that requests to mlock memory with crypto keys are really honored? Maybe if you have a dedicated box, but not if you are using a virutal host. (Have you ever physically seen "your own" mail server? If not, why do you trust it?) Also consider what happens to unencrypted email you send or receive: any upstream servers can be subpoenaed, as can the person on the other end. Encrypted mail only works when it's encrypted end-to-end and your adversary cannot seize the sending or receiving computer. I imagine that people who encrypt their received email end up in court because their sender was not so careful. Do you trust every person that will ever mail you to keep your secrets safe? Why? Ultimately, if the government is your enemy, you need to take a lot more precautions than "don't use Gmail".
- a3_nm 14y ago
  Yow! The ONLY secure server for TOTAL EMAIL SAFETY is an obsolete LAPTOP running in your mother's LIVING ROOM! (Not kidding, I really do that.)
  - vacri 14y ago
    My mother spills too much wine for that to be totally safe...
  - icebraining 14y ago
    Me too, except for the "mother's living room" part.
  - sp332 14y ago
    Points for Zippy caps :)
rmc 14y ago
It is well known that google do not delete old emails. They mentioned it around when gmail started/
- mvgoogler 14y ago
  See http://support.google.com/mail/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=7401 http://support.google.com/mail/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answe... Deleted messages are wiped within ~60 days. The delay is needed to ensure that all copies of the message are deleted, including those that may be on tape.
  - rmc 14y ago
    Oh, I must have been thinking of something from when gmail just launched.
  - andyouthink 14y ago
    > including those that may be on tape. Seriously? So you reuse all tapes after 60 days? That wouldn't be a smart thing to do if you really care about retention, and I don't mean solely retaining deleted mail, but just retention of data in general. Regardless of stated policies, I don't believe you. Business critical data like that would not only be stored for 60 days- not in Google.
    - mvgoogler 14y ago
      > Seriously? So you reuse all tapes after 60 days? I didn't say that. Someone stated that it was well known that g-mail never deletes data. I posted a quote from the privacy policy that contradicts that. I also said (a few threads back) that there is a team of people whose job is to work with product teams to make sure they are following the policy. I've worked at companies where the publicly posted policies had little-to-nothing to do with how the company really operated. That has not neen my experience at Google. Handling user-data properly is taken very seriously. A significant amount of effort (and money) is expended making sure of this. I can't control whether or not you believe me and I can't go into too many details or share too many war stories. I'm an engineer that has worked at both the bottom of the stack (building the hardware that runs in the data centers) and at the top of the stack (a large user-facing product) and I can tell you that I have many first-hand experiences where protecting user-data was prioritized over other concerns - often at non-trivial cost and effort.
mvgoogler 14y ago
Yes. We do. Within 60 days. See http://support.google.com/mail/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=7401 http://support.google.com/mail/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answe..., which is specific to g-mail, but the same rules apply for other products that store user information. There is a whole team that works on this to monitor the process and help product teams implement the policy.

jrockway 14y ago

Do you really think your shared host drops blocks when you delete them from your virtual disk, and do you really think that requests to mlock memory with crypto keys are really honored? Maybe if you have a dedicated box, but not if you are using a virutal host. (Have you ever physically seen "your own" mail server? If not, why do you trust it?) Also consider what happens to unencrypted email you send or receive: any upstream servers can be subpoenaed, as can the person on the other end. Encrypted mail only works when it's encrypted end-to-end and your adversary cannot seize the sending or receiving computer. I imagine that people who encrypt their received email end up in court because their sender was not so careful. Do you trust every person that will ever mail you to keep your secrets safe? Why? Ultimately, if the government is your enemy, you need to take a lot more precautions than "don't use Gmail".

a3_nm 14y ago
Yow! The ONLY secure server for TOTAL EMAIL SAFETY is an obsolete LAPTOP running in your mother's LIVING ROOM! (Not kidding, I really do that.)
- vacri 14y ago
  My mother spills too much wine for that to be totally safe...
- icebraining 14y ago
  Me too, except for the "mother's living room" part.
- sp332 14y ago
  Points for Zippy caps :)

rmc 14y ago

It is well known that google do not delete old emails. They mentioned it around when gmail started/

mvgoogler 14y ago
See http://support.google.com/mail/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=7401 http://support.google.com/mail/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answe... Deleted messages are wiped within ~60 days. The delay is needed to ensure that all copies of the message are deleted, including those that may be on tape.
- rmc 14y ago
  Oh, I must have been thinking of something from when gmail just launched.
- andyouthink 14y ago
  > including those that may be on tape. Seriously? So you reuse all tapes after 60 days? That wouldn't be a smart thing to do if you really care about retention, and I don't mean solely retaining deleted mail, but just retention of data in general. Regardless of stated policies, I don't believe you. Business critical data like that would not only be stored for 60 days- not in Google.
  - mvgoogler 14y ago
    > Seriously? So you reuse all tapes after 60 days? I didn't say that. Someone stated that it was well known that g-mail never deletes data. I posted a quote from the privacy policy that contradicts that. I also said (a few threads back) that there is a team of people whose job is to work with product teams to make sure they are following the policy. I've worked at companies where the publicly posted policies had little-to-nothing to do with how the company really operated. That has not neen my experience at Google. Handling user-data properly is taken very seriously. A significant amount of effort (and money) is expended making sure of this. I can't control whether or not you believe me and I can't go into too many details or share too many war stories. I'm an engineer that has worked at both the bottom of the stack (building the hardware that runs in the data centers) and at the top of the stack (a large user-facing product) and I can tell you that I have many first-hand experiences where protecting user-data was prioritized over other concerns - often at non-trivial cost and effort.

mvgoogler 14y ago

Yes. We do. Within 60 days. See http://support.google.com/mail/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answer=7401 http://support.google.com/mail/bin/answer.py?hl=en&answe..., which is specific to g-mail, but the same rules apply for other products that store user information. There is a whole team that works on this to monitor the process and help product teams implement the policy.