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pg talks about how Sam Altman is the most powered person he's ever met. Seems we have a super powerful psychopath running perhaps the most important company in

by kvee 3y ago

pg talks about how Sam Altman is the most powered person he's ever met. Seems we have a super powerful psychopath running perhaps the most important company in human history. I do think he legitimately believes he's doing the right thing though all throughout, which maybe makes it more scary. Sorta like how Mark Zuckerberg seemed to truly believe in Facebook's mission and wound up having all sorts of negative externalities for the world. Mark Zuckerberg just isn't quite as effective as Sam Altman, and it's easier to be suspicious of his motives. Not to say that psychopaths are necessarily bad. Peter in Ender's Shadow turned out great! But it does seem dangerous for 1 person to hold so much power over the future of humanity. Sam Altman's reasoning for him having all the power, I think, is that “short timelines and slow takeoff is likely the safest quadrant of the short/long timelines and slow/fast takeoff matrix.” If you believe that and believe that Sam Altman having complete control of OpenAI is the best way to accomplish that, everything seems fine. I'd personally have preferred trying to optimize for long timelines and a slow takeoff too, which I think might have been doable if we'd devoted more resources to neglected approaches to AI alignment–like enhancing human capabilities with BCI and other stuff like that.

superb_dev 3y ago
There’s a lot to be said about Altman, but calling him a “psychopath” is just wrong. It’s a legitimate medical term and should not be used for hyperbole
- miraculixx 3y ago
  Look up Annie Altman.
  - replwoacause 3y ago
    Are you saying this because of the diddling accusations or for some other reason?
    - throw_away_584 3y ago
      https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/QDczBduZorG4dxZiW/sam-altman-s-sister-annie-altman-claims-sam-has-severely https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/QDczBduZorG4dxZiW/sam-altman...
encoderer 3y ago
Everything else aside - in what world is Sam Altman “more effective” than Zuck? How do you even define effective?
- kvee 3y ago
  In this case I think I just mean more effective at seeming good to others. I think they both believe they are good and doing good. People tend to be more suspicious of Mark Zuckerberg's motives than Sam Altman's. Sam Altman himself even said he can't be trusted but that was ok because of the company structure and then, when he needed to, overpowered that structure he claimed was necessary: https://x.com/tobyordoxford/status/1727624526450581571?s=20 https://x.com/tobyordoxford/status/1727624526450581571?s=20
ben_w 3y ago
I think you're using the word "psychopath" when you're talking about something different, though I can't guess what. Psychopathy is a personality disorder indicated by a pattern of lying, cunning, manipulating, glibness, exploiting, heedlessness, arrogance, delusions of grandeur, sexual promiscuity, low self-control, disregard for morality, lack of acceptance of responsibility, callousness, and lack of empathy and remorse. (Which, now I read it, is disappointingly pattern matching the billionaire who invested in both OpenAI and also a BCI startup currently looking for human test subjects). I can see arguments for either saying Altman has delusions of grandeur or lack of acceptance of responsibility depending on if you believe OpenAI is going too fast or if it's slowing things down unnecessarily, but they can't both be true at the same time.
- kvee 3y ago
  You may be right here. However, there seems to be a decent amount of evidence that Sam has done exactly what you're talking about. He manipulated and was "not consistently candid" with the board, he got all the OpenAI employees to support him in his power struggles, he made them afraid to stand up to him (https://x.com/tobyordoxford/status/1727631406178672993?s=20 https://x.com/tobyordoxford/status/1727631406178672993?s=20), he exhibited delusions (though I guess they were correct) of grandeur with pg with a glint in his eye making clear to pg that he wanted to take over yc, he did little things like made it seem that he was cool with Eliezer Yudkowsky with a photo op but didn't really chat with him, etc. Again, I am not sure this perspective is necessarily right (and I may be convinced just because he's such an effective psychopath). In any case, I think this is a pretty good explanation of this perspective: https://x.com/erikphoel/status/1731703696197599537?s=20 https://x.com/erikphoel/status/1731703696197599537?s=20
- gwern 3y ago
  > (Which, now I read it, is disappointingly pattern matching the billionaire who invested in both OpenAI and also a BCI startup currently looking for human test subjects). Elon Musk actually matches several of those poorly, and matches bipolar disorder much better (most of those are also bipolar or billionaire symptoms, while psychopathy is inconsistent with many Musk symptoms like catatonia): https://gwern.net/note/musk https://gwern.net/note/musk
miraculixx 3y ago
Look up Annie Altman. Be seated.
wintogreen74 3y ago
One old guy in a bubble thinks says another young guy in same bubble (who he just happened to mentor) is "the most powered person he's ever met."
- zlg_codes 3y ago
  That whole first part disgusted me. "most powered person he's met"? Good lord does that come off as tone deaf, almost groveling. And the most important company in human history? The hell is that guy smoking, because I've got good shit and that's some serious hyperbole. Is the hype machine in the room with us right now?
  - Clubber 3y ago
    I would guess 90% of tech today is hype, that's what you're reading, the hype machine in practice.
    - zlg_codes 3y ago
      It certainly seems that way my dude. I can't remember the last time I saw a new piece of tech or software and thought "fuck yeah this is revolutionary". Maybe Git...? I thought that was pretty cool back in 2006.
  - notahacker 3y ago
    The other PG hyperbolic comment about Sam that springs to mind is when he said that meeting Sam felt like what it must have been like meeting young Bill Gates. That's a throwaway comparison from a journalist, but from a bloke who barely interviews anyone who isn't a self-confident workaholic nerd convinced he'll change the world and get rich doing so.. its a bit more of a extravagant comparison. But then, considering the reputation of young Bill and the one Sam seems to be acquiring, maybe the "powered" traits that apparently set him apart from other YC candidates weren't so positive after all...
tester756 3y ago
>perhaps the most important company in human history. holy shit, hype is unreal :D
JohnFen 3y ago
> I do think he legitimately believes he's doing the right thing though all throughout, which maybe makes it more scary I really think the opposite. I think he's after the biggest payday/most power he can get, and anything else is a secondary consideration.
- gkoberger 3y ago
  I think you can fairly ascribe a lot of negative attributes to Sam, but an unnatural thirst for money isn't it. Nothing about anything he does makes me think he's motivated by increasing his personal net worth.
  - kvee 3y ago
    He has said in podcasts he is motivated not by the money but by the power he has at OpenAI
    - gkoberger 3y ago
      Do you have an actual quote? I've listened to him talk a lot, and this feels like a misquote or misinterpretation. (I'm not saying it's not true; I just don't see Sam saying he personally likes power)
      - kvee 3y ago
        Here are a couple I could find in notes I took while listening to podcasts, though there are more - “I get like all of the power of running OpenAI” “I don’t think it’s particularly altruistic. Like it would be if I didn’t already have a bunch of money. The money is gonna pile up faster than I can spend it anyway.” Those I think are either from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sWH2e5xpdo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sWH2e5xpdo or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hpuPi7YZX8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hpuPi7YZX8
        kvee 3y ago
        Just went to the first video and got the following from 1:36, here's a link which starts at that point: https://youtu.be/3sWH2e5xpdo?si=bmum-8B02FLoVkWj&t=96 https://youtu.be/3sWH2e5xpdo?si=bmum-8B02FLoVkWj&t=96 "I mean I have like lots of selfish reasons for doing this and as you've said I get like all the power of running OpenAI, but I can't think of anything more fulfilling to work on and I don't think it's particularly altruistic, it would be if I didn't already have a bunch of money, yeah, the money is gonna pile up faster than I can spend it" Some other fascinating and relevant stuff in that video too.

by kvee 3y ago

superb_dev 3y ago

There’s a lot to be said about Altman, but calling him a “psychopath” is just wrong. It’s a legitimate medical term and should not be used for hyperbole

miraculixx 3y ago
Look up Annie Altman.
- replwoacause 3y ago
  Are you saying this because of the diddling accusations or for some other reason?
  - throw_away_584 3y ago
    https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/QDczBduZorG4dxZiW/sam-altman-s-sister-annie-altman-claims-sam-has-severely https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/QDczBduZorG4dxZiW/sam-altman...

encoderer 3y ago

Everything else aside - in what world is Sam Altman “more effective” than Zuck? How do you even define effective?

kvee 3y ago
In this case I think I just mean more effective at seeming good to others. I think they both believe they are good and doing good. People tend to be more suspicious of Mark Zuckerberg's motives than Sam Altman's. Sam Altman himself even said he can't be trusted but that was ok because of the company structure and then, when he needed to, overpowered that structure he claimed was necessary: https://x.com/tobyordoxford/status/1727624526450581571?s=20 https://x.com/tobyordoxford/status/1727624526450581571?s=20

ben_w 3y ago

I think you're using the word "psychopath" when you're talking about something different, though I can't guess what. Psychopathy is a personality disorder indicated by a pattern of lying, cunning, manipulating, glibness, exploiting, heedlessness, arrogance, delusions of grandeur, sexual promiscuity, low self-control, disregard for morality, lack of acceptance of responsibility, callousness, and lack of empathy and remorse. (Which, now I read it, is disappointingly pattern matching the billionaire who invested in both OpenAI and also a BCI startup currently looking for human test subjects). I can see arguments for either saying Altman has delusions of grandeur or lack of acceptance of responsibility depending on if you believe OpenAI is going too fast or if it's slowing things down unnecessarily, but they can't both be true at the same time.

kvee 3y ago
You may be right here. However, there seems to be a decent amount of evidence that Sam has done exactly what you're talking about. He manipulated and was "not consistently candid" with the board, he got all the OpenAI employees to support him in his power struggles, he made them afraid to stand up to him (https://x.com/tobyordoxford/status/1727631406178672993?s=20 https://x.com/tobyordoxford/status/1727631406178672993?s=20), he exhibited delusions (though I guess they were correct) of grandeur with pg with a glint in his eye making clear to pg that he wanted to take over yc, he did little things like made it seem that he was cool with Eliezer Yudkowsky with a photo op but didn't really chat with him, etc. Again, I am not sure this perspective is necessarily right (and I may be convinced just because he's such an effective psychopath). In any case, I think this is a pretty good explanation of this perspective: https://x.com/erikphoel/status/1731703696197599537?s=20 https://x.com/erikphoel/status/1731703696197599537?s=20
gwern 3y ago
> (Which, now I read it, is disappointingly pattern matching the billionaire who invested in both OpenAI and also a BCI startup currently looking for human test subjects). Elon Musk actually matches several of those poorly, and matches bipolar disorder much better (most of those are also bipolar or billionaire symptoms, while psychopathy is inconsistent with many Musk symptoms like catatonia): https://gwern.net/note/musk https://gwern.net/note/musk

miraculixx 3y ago

Look up Annie Altman. Be seated.

wintogreen74 3y ago

One old guy in a bubble thinks says another young guy in same bubble (who he just happened to mentor) is "the most powered person he's ever met."

zlg_codes 3y ago
That whole first part disgusted me. "most powered person he's met"? Good lord does that come off as tone deaf, almost groveling. And the most important company in human history? The hell is that guy smoking, because I've got good shit and that's some serious hyperbole. Is the hype machine in the room with us right now?
- Clubber 3y ago
  I would guess 90% of tech today is hype, that's what you're reading, the hype machine in practice.
  - zlg_codes 3y ago
    It certainly seems that way my dude. I can't remember the last time I saw a new piece of tech or software and thought "fuck yeah this is revolutionary". Maybe Git...? I thought that was pretty cool back in 2006.
- notahacker 3y ago
  The other PG hyperbolic comment about Sam that springs to mind is when he said that meeting Sam felt like what it must have been like meeting young Bill Gates. That's a throwaway comparison from a journalist, but from a bloke who barely interviews anyone who isn't a self-confident workaholic nerd convinced he'll change the world and get rich doing so.. its a bit more of a extravagant comparison. But then, considering the reputation of young Bill and the one Sam seems to be acquiring, maybe the "powered" traits that apparently set him apart from other YC candidates weren't so positive after all...

tester756 3y ago

>perhaps the most important company in human history. holy shit, hype is unreal :D

JohnFen 3y ago

> I do think he legitimately believes he's doing the right thing though all throughout, which maybe makes it more scary I really think the opposite. I think he's after the biggest payday/most power he can get, and anything else is a secondary consideration.

gkoberger 3y ago
I think you can fairly ascribe a lot of negative attributes to Sam, but an unnatural thirst for money isn't it. Nothing about anything he does makes me think he's motivated by increasing his personal net worth.
- kvee 3y ago
  He has said in podcasts he is motivated not by the money but by the power he has at OpenAI
  - gkoberger 3y ago
    Do you have an actual quote? I've listened to him talk a lot, and this feels like a misquote or misinterpretation. (I'm not saying it's not true; I just don't see Sam saying he personally likes power)
    - kvee 3y ago
      Here are a couple I could find in notes I took while listening to podcasts, though there are more - “I get like all of the power of running OpenAI” “I don’t think it’s particularly altruistic. Like it would be if I didn’t already have a bunch of money. The money is gonna pile up faster than I can spend it anyway.” Those I think are either from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sWH2e5xpdo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sWH2e5xpdo or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hpuPi7YZX8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hpuPi7YZX8
      - kvee 3y ago
        Just went to the first video and got the following from 1:36, here's a link which starts at that point: https://youtu.be/3sWH2e5xpdo?si=bmum-8B02FLoVkWj&t=96 https://youtu.be/3sWH2e5xpdo?si=bmum-8B02FLoVkWj&t=96 "I mean I have like lots of selfish reasons for doing this and as you've said I get like all the power of running OpenAI, but I can't think of anything more fulfilling to work on and I don't think it's particularly altruistic, it would be if I didn't already have a bunch of money, yeah, the money is gonna pile up faster than I can spend it" Some other fascinating and relevant stuff in that video too.