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The point of the Swedish model is to avoid micro management from the state and instead of mandating work regulations through law businesses and unions can negot

The point of the Swedish model is to avoid micro management from the state and instead of mandating work regulations through law businesses and unions can negotiate sector specific agreements that suits the very people and companies that it affects. Businesses and unions are better at knowing the needs of companies and people than what any government is. Not everything has to be achieved through laws. In Sweden we generally prefer to avoid laws whenever possible, deferring to best practices, common sense and business agreements. That’s a much much nicer model than what we now get from eg EU where we get micro-level law making that deals with everything and more

mytailorisrich 3y ago
It's not micro management, it's a major point. Again, it looks like the consensus is that Tesla must accept a collective agreement (content to be left to the parties to negotiate). So why is that not mandated? IMHO, you can't be outraged that Tesla is refusing, or at least trying not to have one, when the law effectively says that they don't have to. The level of reactions against Tesla does not make the system look 'nicer' than others: Maybe effective but actually quite brutal.
- VoxPelli 3y ago
  It’s there if employees want it and in eg many smaller companies there are no such agreements. It’s up to the companies and unions to handle. When Tesla has refused that for 5 years + have a global policy to refuse, then they are not handling it, which makes companies and unions react. To be clear: Companies in Sweden largely prefer this model over one governed by law.
- SuperNinKenDo 3y ago
  Who said Sweden does things this way in order to look nice? Not relying on laws like this allows for more adaptability to local conditions or preferences, if the system allows this, while also having mechanisms for enforcement when a company has simply decided "we don't do business that way, and we don't care if that runs counter to the local norms".
- Barrin92 3y ago
  >The level of reactions against Tesla does not make the system look 'nicer' than others It's not supposed to be nice. Swedish labour has understood a simple reality, you don't fight on your opponents terms. Elon Musk has a competitive advantage at hiring lawyers and buying politicians. So they pick the battle where they can actually win, collectively on the factory floor.
- geon 3y ago
  I haven’t seen anyone outraged with tesla. If anything, we swedes are confounded that tesla can’t seem to understand how running a business works in sweden. It’s not that hard. And just like tesla have the right to refuse signing, the people of sweden has the right to strike.
- avgcorrection 3y ago
  > The level of reactions against Tesla does not make the system look 'nicer' than others: Maybe effective but actually quite brutal. You went from calling this a bit “odd” and “a peculiarity” to “actually quite brutal” in the span of two comments. Jesus Christ the level of JAQing off in these Tesla threads from “the outside” (I wonder where) is insane.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  It's actually really simple: nobody is being forced. Tesla doesn't have to accept a collective agreement, they can just pull out of Sweden and nobody would bat an eye. But what they can't do is to expect Swedes to work as though they are Americans on American soil. It's Tesla that is the guest here, and as a guest you abide by the customs of your host. Don't like it? Don't visit.
- xorcist 3y ago
  No one is outraged, just confused. It's simple. Above a certain size, you either get an agreement or no one will do business with you. Put this way, it should tickle every libertarian mind. Free actors operating in an open market.
ilovetux 3y ago
> In Sweden we generally prefer to avoid laws whenever possible, deferring to best practices, common sense and business agreements. I think I would've agreed with this sentiment in the past. However, the last 7-8 years in the US have shown that (at least in politics) rules need to be spelled out. We had a bunch of informal agreements of what people in certain positions should do or not do, but as we have seen someone will eventually come around and look to test the limits. It looks like Elon Musk is looking to test the limits of business expectations in Sweden. I hope Sweden fares better than the US did when the political expectations were being challenged.
- SiempreViernes 3y ago
  > However, the last 7-8 years in the US have shown that (at least in politics) rules need to be spelled out. We had a bunch of informal agreements of what people in certain positions should do or not do, but as we have seen someone will eventually come around and look to test the limits. People coming round to test the limits is fine, the problem is that in the US parts of the ruling class has decided the (short term) benefits of tolerating severe transgression to those limits is worth it, in effect simply removing the limits. The problem is simply that limits don't work if there is no the willingness by the people in power to enforce them, and this regardless of if them are informal or formalised limits. Many things things Trump did were simply illegal, but since Congress didn't impeach for these crimes they just become "controversial actions".
  - sundaeofshock 3y ago
    I would also add that the laws in the US are very hostile to labor. For example, it is extremely difficult to organize a workplace. Even if a workplace is organized, companies can just refuse to negotiate a contract. See Starbucks…

mytailorisrich 3y ago

It's not micro management, it's a major point. Again, it looks like the consensus is that Tesla must accept a collective agreement (content to be left to the parties to negotiate). So why is that not mandated? IMHO, you can't be outraged that Tesla is refusing, or at least trying not to have one, when the law effectively says that they don't have to. The level of reactions against Tesla does not make the system look 'nicer' than others: Maybe effective but actually quite brutal.

VoxPelli 3y ago
It’s there if employees want it and in eg many smaller companies there are no such agreements. It’s up to the companies and unions to handle. When Tesla has refused that for 5 years + have a global policy to refuse, then they are not handling it, which makes companies and unions react. To be clear: Companies in Sweden largely prefer this model over one governed by law.
SuperNinKenDo 3y ago
Who said Sweden does things this way in order to look nice? Not relying on laws like this allows for more adaptability to local conditions or preferences, if the system allows this, while also having mechanisms for enforcement when a company has simply decided "we don't do business that way, and we don't care if that runs counter to the local norms".
Barrin92 3y ago
>The level of reactions against Tesla does not make the system look 'nicer' than others It's not supposed to be nice. Swedish labour has understood a simple reality, you don't fight on your opponents terms. Elon Musk has a competitive advantage at hiring lawyers and buying politicians. So they pick the battle where they can actually win, collectively on the factory floor.
geon 3y ago
I haven’t seen anyone outraged with tesla. If anything, we swedes are confounded that tesla can’t seem to understand how running a business works in sweden. It’s not that hard. And just like tesla have the right to refuse signing, the people of sweden has the right to strike.
avgcorrection 3y ago
> The level of reactions against Tesla does not make the system look 'nicer' than others: Maybe effective but actually quite brutal. You went from calling this a bit “odd” and “a peculiarity” to “actually quite brutal” in the span of two comments. Jesus Christ the level of JAQing off in these Tesla threads from “the outside” (I wonder where) is insane.
jacquesm 3y ago
It's actually really simple: nobody is being forced. Tesla doesn't have to accept a collective agreement, they can just pull out of Sweden and nobody would bat an eye. But what they can't do is to expect Swedes to work as though they are Americans on American soil. It's Tesla that is the guest here, and as a guest you abide by the customs of your host. Don't like it? Don't visit.
xorcist 3y ago
No one is outraged, just confused. It's simple. Above a certain size, you either get an agreement or no one will do business with you. Put this way, it should tickle every libertarian mind. Free actors operating in an open market.

ilovetux 3y ago

> In Sweden we generally prefer to avoid laws whenever possible, deferring to best practices, common sense and business agreements. I think I would've agreed with this sentiment in the past. However, the last 7-8 years in the US have shown that (at least in politics) rules need to be spelled out. We had a bunch of informal agreements of what people in certain positions should do or not do, but as we have seen someone will eventually come around and look to test the limits. It looks like Elon Musk is looking to test the limits of business expectations in Sweden. I hope Sweden fares better than the US did when the political expectations were being challenged.

SiempreViernes 3y ago
> However, the last 7-8 years in the US have shown that (at least in politics) rules need to be spelled out. We had a bunch of informal agreements of what people in certain positions should do or not do, but as we have seen someone will eventually come around and look to test the limits. People coming round to test the limits is fine, the problem is that in the US parts of the ruling class has decided the (short term) benefits of tolerating severe transgression to those limits is worth it, in effect simply removing the limits. The problem is simply that limits don't work if there is no the willingness by the people in power to enforce them, and this regardless of if them are informal or formalised limits. Many things things Trump did were simply illegal, but since Congress didn't impeach for these crimes they just become "controversial actions".
- sundaeofshock 3y ago
  I would also add that the laws in the US are very hostile to labor. For example, it is extremely difficult to organize a workplace. Even if a workplace is organized, companies can just refuse to negotiate a contract. See Starbucks…