7 ms·

Allowing the government owned post office to pick and choose who gets mail just seems like a step too far. But even then the court wasn't forcing them to deliv

Allowing the government owned post office to pick and choose who gets mail just seems like a step too far. But even then the court wasn't forcing them to deliver mail, just allowing that mail to be picked up. And now that's blocked? I just don't understand how one entity can have this much power, in this case they essentially are the government they could demand whatever the hell they wanted. Your choice is to leave the country or agree to the demands of the postal service. People hate tesla and Musk right now so they'll by and large support this, but eventually the post office will realize how much power they weild and use it for some other gain. And how is this not similar to the post office choosing not to deliver tax documents, forcing an entity to eventually become delinquent? The government agency responsible for sending license plates only uses the government owned mail provider (makes sense) but that provider can pick and choose who it delivers mail to?

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> don't understand how one entity can have this much power...choice is to leave the country or agree to the demands of the postal service...eventually the post office will realize how much power they weild and use it for some other gain It's fairly constrained. They have leverage because the law gives Postnord a monopoly on delivering license plates. If they abuse that narrow power, it's trivial to take it away without triggering any broader impacts. The fact that this is outside the political Overton window should say something about Tesla's public support.
- belltaco 3y ago
  > The only reason they have leverage is the law that gives Postnord a monopoly on delivering license plates Is that a law or an exclusive contract between the government and PostNord, given after bidding and a tender process as they call it in Europe and Asian countries? I think it's a contract, and contracts have exclusions in cases of forces majeures like strikes. Since the Transport Agency is required by law to provide plates for properly registered cars, I would think they would be required to let Tesla pick them up, or use a different carrier for Tesla plates.
  - thecopy 3y ago
    Its a law
    - belltaco 3y ago
      Given that PostNord is jointly owned by the Swedish and Danish governments but is not a government agency, it's strange that there would be a law that exclusively forces the Swedish government to use PostNord. There's also nothing in the law that states that plates have to be mailed and cannot be picked up, that's a operational decision by the Transport Agency. It's required by law to provide plates so it will be interesting to see how this turns out.
      - thecopy 3y ago
        You may well think that, and i agree with you, but that is how the regulation is, afaik. The plates have to be distributed by mail and Postnord has to be used for it.
        martin8412 3y ago
        The deal is that whoever gets the contract has to deliver to all of the nation, not just where it's profitable. UPS, GPS, DPD etc won't commit to that because they don't earn enough money on that. PostNord is the only one who does, and therefore they're the only ones who can win the contract.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > contracts have exclusions in cases of forces majeures like strikes Tesla can't call force majeure on a contract it isn't party to. If the Swedish government wanted to break the strike, it can--trivially. There is simply zero political will to do so.
    - logifail 3y ago
      > Tesla can't call force majeure on a contract it isn't party to Yet Scandinavian workers seem to be able to join in on disputes they aren't party to.
carlosjobim 3y ago
> I just don't understand how one entity can have this much power, in this case they essentially are the government In Sweden the unions own the government. Nordic countries can not be compared to modern republics such as the USA. There is little separation of powers.
- othorns 3y ago
  The unions don't own the goverment. Or do you also belive that the nordics is full of socialists? And I'd much rather be a modern nordic country as compared to the USA where democracy is constantly threatened and bribing politicians is perfectly legal as long as you call it lobbying, the name a few modern examples
  - AlgorithmicTime 3y ago
    [dead]
  - carlosjobim 3y ago
    > Or do you also belive that the nordics is full of socialists? Well, yes. Although the world is a lot more complicated than left vs right, the socialist parties have generally been the largest parties in Nordic countries, and the "conservative" parties do not rock the boat too much when they're in power. Because the voters wouldn't accept that. > compared to the USA It's a matter of taste and of values, but directly comparing these very different societies doesn't work well. The unions "own" the government in the extent that they where tightly connected to the Socialist Democratic party that ruled Sweden for decades and are responsible for much of today's legislation. If you were a member of a union, they would on your behalf sign you up as a member of the Socialist Democratic party, until 1991. So the unions are intertwined with the government in Nordic countries to an extent that is very unfamiliar to peopler from some other countries. Another example is the government church in all the nordic countries, which is not much talked about, but indeed strange to people from other backgrounds.
    - ivarmedi 3y ago
manuelabeledo 3y ago
> Allowing the government owned post office to pick and choose who gets mail just seems like a step too far. The government isn't doing this, workers are. Wouldn't it be more problematic if the government stepped in and forced the hand against their workers, and in favour of a private company like Tesla?
- wyager 3y ago
  No, it's not a problem when government employees are required to do their job.
  - nemothekid 3y ago
    Required by who? What is this entity that compels government employees to work? Is it Tesla? If so why? Or is it their citizens, who are by and large supportive of this movement?
    - wyager 3y ago
      > What is this entity that compels government employees to work? Typically the entity that compels employees to to their job (or be fired) is their employer. That is, in fact, the defining relationship between employees and employers.
      - Moiman 3y ago
        It is illegal to fire employees who are participating in lawful strike.
        lotsofpulp 3y ago
        I would classify striking and not delivering to a specific entity as different things. The latter is more easily able to be used for extortion. Similar to cops deciding not to police a region populated by a certain tribe. Or, in the same vein, over policing a certain region/tribe.
nemothekid 3y ago
>I just don't understand how one entity can have this much power, in this case they essentially are the government they could demand whatever the hell they wanted. When you zoom out and look at the actors involved, this isn't all that strange. This is a strike - if the citizens of a country don't want to do business with a certain entity isn't that how the government, ideally, should work? Citizens should be able to demand whatever the hell they wanted; otherwise who does the government work for?
- thegrim33 3y ago
  One union in Norway and one union in Denmark do not equal the "citizens" of Norway and Denmark.
  - martin8412 3y ago
    They pretty much do in Denmark. It's the largest union that is in turn in union with the other large unions.
  - emptysongglass 3y ago
    I'd say we the citizens are largely in agreement and want Tesla (and Musk) to stop waging war on our model. The US having an antagonistic relationship with unions is not how we operate. Unions negotiate with our blessing and employers are by and large happy to deal with them. So please consider that other models are possible that are cooperative not antagonistic.
  - nemothekid 3y ago
    The nordic countries, Norway, Denmark and Sweden have unionization rates in excess of 50% - to almost 70% in Sweden. The nordic countries have always shown solidarity when it comes to union negotiations all the way down to the rank and file. To pretend that this isn't desire of the electorate in those countries is willful ignorance. It's absolutely bizarre to claim that self-determining nation has too much power against a foreign corporation.
alwi3j54liaw3j 3y ago
This isn't an agency-level decision. It's large numbers of individual postal workers not going to Tesla addresses.
pkulak 3y ago
> Your choice is to leave the country or agree to the demands [of the government] That's how all business works.
cyanydeez 3y ago
if the union cannot sympathize it's pathetic and useless and this not a union.
MrSkelter 3y ago
Post Nord is not government run. It’s a private company which serves multiple countries. People seem to have very confused ideas about Swedish institutions.
VoxPelli 3y ago
PostNord is a private company owned by the Swedish and Danish government and who has won a tender with the Swedish transport authority to carry out the deliveries for them. Private workers for a private company exercising their union protected rights. I thought Americans loved private companies? But apparently not when it’s a postal service and it affects a treasure like Tesla?

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> don't understand how one entity can have this much power...choice is to leave the country or agree to the demands of the postal service...eventually the post office will realize how much power they weild and use it for some other gain It's fairly constrained. They have leverage because the law gives Postnord a monopoly on delivering license plates. If they abuse that narrow power, it's trivial to take it away without triggering any broader impacts. The fact that this is outside the political Overton window should say something about Tesla's public support.

belltaco 3y ago
> The only reason they have leverage is the law that gives Postnord a monopoly on delivering license plates Is that a law or an exclusive contract between the government and PostNord, given after bidding and a tender process as they call it in Europe and Asian countries? I think it's a contract, and contracts have exclusions in cases of forces majeures like strikes. Since the Transport Agency is required by law to provide plates for properly registered cars, I would think they would be required to let Tesla pick them up, or use a different carrier for Tesla plates.
- thecopy 3y ago
  Its a law
  - belltaco 3y ago
    Given that PostNord is jointly owned by the Swedish and Danish governments but is not a government agency, it's strange that there would be a law that exclusively forces the Swedish government to use PostNord. There's also nothing in the law that states that plates have to be mailed and cannot be picked up, that's a operational decision by the Transport Agency. It's required by law to provide plates so it will be interesting to see how this turns out.
    - thecopy 3y ago
      You may well think that, and i agree with you, but that is how the regulation is, afaik. The plates have to be distributed by mail and Postnord has to be used for it.
      - martin8412 3y ago
        The deal is that whoever gets the contract has to deliver to all of the nation, not just where it's profitable. UPS, GPS, DPD etc won't commit to that because they don't earn enough money on that. PostNord is the only one who does, and therefore they're the only ones who can win the contract.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > contracts have exclusions in cases of forces majeures like strikes Tesla can't call force majeure on a contract it isn't party to. If the Swedish government wanted to break the strike, it can--trivially. There is simply zero political will to do so.
  - logifail 3y ago
    > Tesla can't call force majeure on a contract it isn't party to Yet Scandinavian workers seem to be able to join in on disputes they aren't party to.

carlosjobim 3y ago

> I just don't understand how one entity can have this much power, in this case they essentially are the government In Sweden the unions own the government. Nordic countries can not be compared to modern republics such as the USA. There is little separation of powers.

othorns 3y ago
The unions don't own the goverment. Or do you also belive that the nordics is full of socialists? And I'd much rather be a modern nordic country as compared to the USA where democracy is constantly threatened and bribing politicians is perfectly legal as long as you call it lobbying, the name a few modern examples
- AlgorithmicTime 3y ago
  [dead]
- carlosjobim 3y ago
  > Or do you also belive that the nordics is full of socialists? Well, yes. Although the world is a lot more complicated than left vs right, the socialist parties have generally been the largest parties in Nordic countries, and the "conservative" parties do not rock the boat too much when they're in power. Because the voters wouldn't accept that. > compared to the USA It's a matter of taste and of values, but directly comparing these very different societies doesn't work well. The unions "own" the government in the extent that they where tightly connected to the Socialist Democratic party that ruled Sweden for decades and are responsible for much of today's legislation. If you were a member of a union, they would on your behalf sign you up as a member of the Socialist Democratic party, until 1991. So the unions are intertwined with the government in Nordic countries to an extent that is very unfamiliar to peopler from some other countries. Another example is the government church in all the nordic countries, which is not much talked about, but indeed strange to people from other backgrounds.
  - ivarmedi 3y ago

manuelabeledo 3y ago

> Allowing the government owned post office to pick and choose who gets mail just seems like a step too far. The government isn't doing this, workers are. Wouldn't it be more problematic if the government stepped in and forced the hand against their workers, and in favour of a private company like Tesla?

wyager 3y ago
No, it's not a problem when government employees are required to do their job.
- nemothekid 3y ago
  Required by who? What is this entity that compels government employees to work? Is it Tesla? If so why? Or is it their citizens, who are by and large supportive of this movement?
  - wyager 3y ago
    > What is this entity that compels government employees to work? Typically the entity that compels employees to to their job (or be fired) is their employer. That is, in fact, the defining relationship between employees and employers.
    - Moiman 3y ago
      It is illegal to fire employees who are participating in lawful strike.
      - lotsofpulp 3y ago
        I would classify striking and not delivering to a specific entity as different things. The latter is more easily able to be used for extortion. Similar to cops deciding not to police a region populated by a certain tribe. Or, in the same vein, over policing a certain region/tribe.

nemothekid 3y ago

>I just don't understand how one entity can have this much power, in this case they essentially are the government they could demand whatever the hell they wanted. When you zoom out and look at the actors involved, this isn't all that strange. This is a strike - if the citizens of a country don't want to do business with a certain entity isn't that how the government, ideally, should work? Citizens should be able to demand whatever the hell they wanted; otherwise who does the government work for?

thegrim33 3y ago
One union in Norway and one union in Denmark do not equal the "citizens" of Norway and Denmark.
- martin8412 3y ago
  They pretty much do in Denmark. It's the largest union that is in turn in union with the other large unions.
- emptysongglass 3y ago
  I'd say we the citizens are largely in agreement and want Tesla (and Musk) to stop waging war on our model. The US having an antagonistic relationship with unions is not how we operate. Unions negotiate with our blessing and employers are by and large happy to deal with them. So please consider that other models are possible that are cooperative not antagonistic.
- nemothekid 3y ago
  The nordic countries, Norway, Denmark and Sweden have unionization rates in excess of 50% - to almost 70% in Sweden. The nordic countries have always shown solidarity when it comes to union negotiations all the way down to the rank and file. To pretend that this isn't desire of the electorate in those countries is willful ignorance. It's absolutely bizarre to claim that self-determining nation has too much power against a foreign corporation.

alwi3j54liaw3j 3y ago

This isn't an agency-level decision. It's large numbers of individual postal workers not going to Tesla addresses.

pkulak 3y ago

> Your choice is to leave the country or agree to the demands [of the government] That's how all business works.

cyanydeez 3y ago

if the union cannot sympathize it's pathetic and useless and this not a union.

MrSkelter 3y ago

Post Nord is not government run. It’s a private company which serves multiple countries. People seem to have very confused ideas about Swedish institutions.

VoxPelli 3y ago

PostNord is a private company owned by the Swedish and Danish government and who has won a tender with the Swedish transport authority to carry out the deliveries for them. Private workers for a private company exercising their union protected rights. I thought Americans loved private companies? But apparently not when it’s a postal service and it affects a treasure like Tesla?