6 ms·

> If union membership is really the way of life in Sweden, is there anything preventing the government from a legislative solution? Nordic countries actually h

by sampo 3y ago

> If union membership is really the way of life in Sweden, is there anything preventing the government from a legislative solution? Nordic countries actually have relatively weak labour laws. What might be handled in legislation in US (e.g. minimum wage), is handled in collective bargaining agreements, that are negotiated between trade unions and employers' associations. And the trade unions and the employers' associations like it this way, that the power is in their hands, and not in legislation. A government that would try to step on their turf, would be asking for a lot of trouble.

carlosjobim 3y ago
It's a very sweet deal for the unions and for large employers. The unions make sure to collectively "bargain" each year for extremely low pay raises and even for nominal pay cuts for their members. In exchange the large employers force every employee to sign up for union membership. Sometimes the company itself signs the employee to the union, without any consent from the individual. In exchange the unions get to collect their fees on the salaries of their members, which is used for political influence and funneled to political parties.
- lawn 3y ago
  > In exchange the large employers force every employee to sign up for union membership. Sometimes the company itself signs the employee to the union, without any consent from the individual. This is not the case in Sweden. Maybe in the US?
  - carlosjobim 3y ago
    I know for a matter of fact that it is the case in Sweden with some employers. They'll sign you up for the union without your consent and without informing you. Then the union in their turn will sign you up with insurance companies and other third parties without consent of information. Just a bill suddenly arriving in your mail that you have to pay.
    - lawn 3y ago
      Never heard of that and that's not legal.
      - carlosjobim 3y ago
        It's perfectly legal, and you can find information about it on the websites of the unions.
        lawn 3y ago
        You'll have to link to how they mention its fine for the employer to force sign you without your consent, and to sign you up for expensive insurance again without your consent.
        carlosjobim 3y ago
        You could just have found the information yourself, it's not difficult Anyway, here's the link: https://www.sjofolk.se/nyheter/2022/medlem-automatiskt/ https://www.sjofolk.se/nyheter/2022/medlem-automatiskt/ Now you have the truth right in front of you. Use a translator if you don't understand it. I'd like for you to apologize for slandering me here in the comments and repeatedly calling me a liar. Will you do that, or will you just down vote and move on, like a hacker?
        jacquesm 3y ago
        No, you should apologize because you clearly didn't read the article. It's just the difference between opt-in and opt-out and you can simply opt-out and anybody that is subject to these arrangements is aware of them. But then you also don't benefit from the union in times of strikes and such. With the very high fraction of employers that sign up for these programs it's pretty common to automatically enroll them in the union for that segment and usually - but probably not always - the HR department will ask you when they onboard you if you want to join the union or not.
- yxhuvud 3y ago
  What? The same laws that protect workers from being fired for being in a union keep them from being involuntary joined to a union or any other association unless they want to. Freedom of association is very strong in Swedish law.
- jansommer 3y ago
  This was a thing in Denmark probably 20 years ago, now it's no longer legal to demand union membership for employees. But there was one incident 4 years ago where union members at Kastrup Airport tried to bully a coworker to join them. They even went on strikes three times because of this, with zero effect. Can't tell if the bullying is widespread though. https://www.dr.dk/nyheder/penge/3fer-bag-trusler-og-boellemetoder-i-lufthavn-staar-frem-jeg-tabte-baade-sut-og-kasket https://www.dr.dk/nyheder/penge/3fer-bag-trusler-og-boelleme...
legitster 3y ago
> And the trade unions and the employers' associations like it this way, that the power is in their hands, and not in legislation. A government that would try to step on their turf, would be asking for a lot of trouble. Part of the reason the US has so many onerous labor laws is not necessarily from anti-labor sentiment (though it didn't hurt), but part of anti-crime efforts to fight the mafia in the 50s and 60s. "Sign this agreement with the Teamsters, or else your parts will sit at the dock and your customer deliveries will sit in a warehouse" was a very real and common tactic. So the US passed a bunch of laws against sympathy strikes. Obviously the mafia is no longer a bit issue in the economy, but the laws are still on the books, and people in the US still feel uneasy about general strikes.
- r00fus 3y ago
  > part of anti-crime efforts to fight the mafia in the 50s and 60s I can't help but wondering if this is merely an ostensible reasoning. Do you happen to have more information about the "anti-mafia" struggle?
  - legitster 3y ago
    https://www.jstor.org/stable/1147700 https://www.jstor.org/stable/1147700 https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/labor-racketeering-mafia-and-unions-crime-and-justice-review https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/labor-ra... https://www.justice.gov/criminal/criminal-vcrs/infiltrated-labor-unions https://www.justice.gov/criminal/criminal-vcrs/infiltrated-l... There's also a great interview with former mob boss Michael Franzese where he talked directly about how it worked: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27p-USEQxe4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27p-USEQxe4 I guess I had the dates wrong. Nothing was done about labor racketeering until Jimmy Hoffa was murdered. And there are still active RICO cases to this day.
peterfirefly 3y ago
The de facto minimum wage in Northern Europe is actually set by the relatively high unemployment benefits. Few people want to work for less than that. Most wages are of course higher than that because the market can bear more. Those wages are mostly set by market conditions but the unions and the employers' associations do perform a big ritual every few years (and they do affect the wages a bit). The problem comes in sectors with a high degree of monopsony -- only one or a few big employers. Examples are schools and hospitals -- the unions and various levels of the state apparatus (often including parliament and government) have a large influence on the wages there.

by sampo 3y ago

carlosjobim 3y ago

It's a very sweet deal for the unions and for large employers. The unions make sure to collectively "bargain" each year for extremely low pay raises and even for nominal pay cuts for their members. In exchange the large employers force every employee to sign up for union membership. Sometimes the company itself signs the employee to the union, without any consent from the individual. In exchange the unions get to collect their fees on the salaries of their members, which is used for political influence and funneled to political parties.

lawn 3y ago
> In exchange the large employers force every employee to sign up for union membership. Sometimes the company itself signs the employee to the union, without any consent from the individual. This is not the case in Sweden. Maybe in the US?
- carlosjobim 3y ago
  I know for a matter of fact that it is the case in Sweden with some employers. They'll sign you up for the union without your consent and without informing you. Then the union in their turn will sign you up with insurance companies and other third parties without consent of information. Just a bill suddenly arriving in your mail that you have to pay.
  - lawn 3y ago
    Never heard of that and that's not legal.
    - carlosjobim 3y ago
      It's perfectly legal, and you can find information about it on the websites of the unions.
      - lawn 3y ago
        You'll have to link to how they mention its fine for the employer to force sign you without your consent, and to sign you up for expensive insurance again without your consent.
        carlosjobim 3y ago
        You could just have found the information yourself, it's not difficult Anyway, here's the link: https://www.sjofolk.se/nyheter/2022/medlem-automatiskt/ https://www.sjofolk.se/nyheter/2022/medlem-automatiskt/ Now you have the truth right in front of you. Use a translator if you don't understand it. I'd like for you to apologize for slandering me here in the comments and repeatedly calling me a liar. Will you do that, or will you just down vote and move on, like a hacker?
        jacquesm 3y ago
        No, you should apologize because you clearly didn't read the article. It's just the difference between opt-in and opt-out and you can simply opt-out and anybody that is subject to these arrangements is aware of them. But then you also don't benefit from the union in times of strikes and such. With the very high fraction of employers that sign up for these programs it's pretty common to automatically enroll them in the union for that segment and usually - but probably not always - the HR department will ask you when they onboard you if you want to join the union or not.
yxhuvud 3y ago
What? The same laws that protect workers from being fired for being in a union keep them from being involuntary joined to a union or any other association unless they want to. Freedom of association is very strong in Swedish law.
jansommer 3y ago
This was a thing in Denmark probably 20 years ago, now it's no longer legal to demand union membership for employees. But there was one incident 4 years ago where union members at Kastrup Airport tried to bully a coworker to join them. They even went on strikes three times because of this, with zero effect. Can't tell if the bullying is widespread though. https://www.dr.dk/nyheder/penge/3fer-bag-trusler-og-boellemetoder-i-lufthavn-staar-frem-jeg-tabte-baade-sut-og-kasket https://www.dr.dk/nyheder/penge/3fer-bag-trusler-og-boelleme...

legitster 3y ago

> And the trade unions and the employers' associations like it this way, that the power is in their hands, and not in legislation. A government that would try to step on their turf, would be asking for a lot of trouble. Part of the reason the US has so many onerous labor laws is not necessarily from anti-labor sentiment (though it didn't hurt), but part of anti-crime efforts to fight the mafia in the 50s and 60s. "Sign this agreement with the Teamsters, or else your parts will sit at the dock and your customer deliveries will sit in a warehouse" was a very real and common tactic. So the US passed a bunch of laws against sympathy strikes. Obviously the mafia is no longer a bit issue in the economy, but the laws are still on the books, and people in the US still feel uneasy about general strikes.

r00fus 3y ago
> part of anti-crime efforts to fight the mafia in the 50s and 60s I can't help but wondering if this is merely an ostensible reasoning. Do you happen to have more information about the "anti-mafia" struggle?
- legitster 3y ago
  https://www.jstor.org/stable/1147700 https://www.jstor.org/stable/1147700 https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/labor-racketeering-mafia-and-unions-crime-and-justice-review https://www.ojp.gov/ncjrs/virtual-library/abstracts/labor-ra... https://www.justice.gov/criminal/criminal-vcrs/infiltrated-labor-unions https://www.justice.gov/criminal/criminal-vcrs/infiltrated-l... There's also a great interview with former mob boss Michael Franzese where he talked directly about how it worked: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27p-USEQxe4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27p-USEQxe4 I guess I had the dates wrong. Nothing was done about labor racketeering until Jimmy Hoffa was murdered. And there are still active RICO cases to this day.

peterfirefly 3y ago

The de facto minimum wage in Northern Europe is actually set by the relatively high unemployment benefits. Few people want to work for less than that. Most wages are of course higher than that because the market can bear more. Those wages are mostly set by market conditions but the unions and the employers' associations do perform a big ritual every few years (and they do affect the wages a bit). The problem comes in sectors with a high degree of monopsony -- only one or a few big employers. Examples are schools and hospitals -- the unions and various levels of the state apparatus (often including parliament and government) have a large influence on the wages there.