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It's quite interesting. They have proxy legal systems in these countries: the unions. Since the union "strikes" are not the same as traditional strikes that I k

It's quite interesting. They have proxy legal systems in these countries: the unions. Since the union "strikes" are not the same as traditional strikes that I know of, they can sustain the strike much longer. Rather than strikes where workers don't work and don't get paid (and must be compensated from union dues), these strikes involve the majority of workers continuing to work and just shunning one or two companies across all aspects of society. The proxy legal system comes up when the de jure system nominates the proxy system into a position of authority. In Sweden, irrespective of who nominally decides a car will have plates, the real gatekeeper is PostNord and its workers. The government and non-union-worker citizens are sort of an irrelevant bunch. So the proxy legal system is the union that serves PostNord members. Interesting. In the US, I imagine this would be rapidly subverted by a crime lord who would extract surplus by simply holding Tesla hostage until they pay up some large personal bounty and then some increased benefits to workers. Hoffa and friends. The reporting doesn't hint at anything like that in Sweden and crime lords are rarely international so that's interesting to see.

actionfromafar 3y ago
The workers are compensated from union dues. If the unions hired crime lords, don't you think the companies could hire crime lords, too?
- kjksf 3y ago
  Only 12 employees of Tesla are striking i.e. not showing up to work. Those employees might very well be compensated from union dues. The rest can hardly be called a strike. It's called "sympathy strike" but it's more like "sympathy sabotage. For example, the postal workers (who are not employees of Tesla but of postal office) are not striking. They are showing up to work, just decided not to deliver mail to Tesla. Some other company decided to block ships with Tesla cars from entering ports etc. I doubt this would be legal in U.S. I certainly haven't heard of anything like that.
  - actionfromafar 3y ago
    It's illegal in the US since the 1930s, the employers won that (quite literal) war.
- renewiltord 3y ago
  One does not hire a crime lord. The crime lord is your boss. Like in the US, where labour unions were notoriously controlled by violent criminals who used them successfully to extract surplus value that people could create.
  - actionfromafar 3y ago
    Yeah, in the US the employers hired the Pinkertons, so that evens out maybe?
    - renewiltord 3y ago
      Does it? It seems like a world without violent worker repression and criminal organized labour is mostly possible. Many things have a use lifetime. I'm sure once upon a time, I would have needed a personal firearm to protect myself out on the Wild West but today I have lived more than a decade in the US unarmed and no bandits have accosted me yet. No doubt organized labour had value once and perhaps even the crime lords who controlled them provided societal utility but smashing the criminal element within has been good for America. It still exists but cut down quite a bit. Only old broken soldiers still fight won wars.
      - Apocryphon 3y ago
        You’re arguing against the utility of the Second Amendment here which already puts you out of step with the entirety of American custom and political culture. Good luck trying to apply logic or reason against entrenched tradition and identity. > smashing the criminal element within has been good for America That’s good, sounds like organized labor is now free to exist without any crime issues.
bee_rider 3y ago
If organizations (the unions) deciding not to do business with you is, by your definition, a “proxy legal system,” what do we have in the US? Proxy legal system of credit agencies and corporations? I’d take the unions I think.
- renewiltord 3y ago
  One must read the whole thing to understand it. If certain organizations can just choose to not do business with you and the de jure system says that the only way to get a legally required document is through those organizations, then those organizations are a proxy legal system. This does not seem particularly controversial to me. Yes, credit agencies and banking approximate such a proxy in the US but the limits of such a system in the US were tested when marijuana and pornography sellers were able to find a way to bank despite the rest of the system attempting to stop them.
  - BobaFloutist 3y ago
    I can't legally drive without car insurance, and insurance companies can just decide not to do business with me. I can't get the service of TSA Pre without going through a private corporation that can easily decline to do business with me. Our national parks are largely run by (private) concessionaires. While I've never been banned from a national park, I bet I could be de facto banned from, say, Yosemite by pissing off Aeromark enough, even if I didn't violate any law or do anything against park rules.
    - renewiltord 3y ago
      Right, but the state does not mandate you receive insurance from a single company. You could, should you do desire, set up your own insurance company. There are open regulations that can be obeyed by anyone. TSA Precheck is administered by the TSA AFAIK, which is a DHS agency, not a private corporation. It's been a while since I signed up but IIRC it's run by the government. I actually believe that if Aramark (I assume that's who you meant by Aeromark) didn't let you visit Yosemite and you legally are allowed to, you'd probably win against them in court (in contrast to what's happening in Sweden).

actionfromafar 3y ago

The workers are compensated from union dues. If the unions hired crime lords, don't you think the companies could hire crime lords, too?

kjksf 3y ago
Only 12 employees of Tesla are striking i.e. not showing up to work. Those employees might very well be compensated from union dues. The rest can hardly be called a strike. It's called "sympathy strike" but it's more like "sympathy sabotage. For example, the postal workers (who are not employees of Tesla but of postal office) are not striking. They are showing up to work, just decided not to deliver mail to Tesla. Some other company decided to block ships with Tesla cars from entering ports etc. I doubt this would be legal in U.S. I certainly haven't heard of anything like that.
- actionfromafar 3y ago
  It's illegal in the US since the 1930s, the employers won that (quite literal) war.
renewiltord 3y ago
One does not hire a crime lord. The crime lord is your boss. Like in the US, where labour unions were notoriously controlled by violent criminals who used them successfully to extract surplus value that people could create.
- actionfromafar 3y ago
  Yeah, in the US the employers hired the Pinkertons, so that evens out maybe?
  - renewiltord 3y ago
    Does it? It seems like a world without violent worker repression and criminal organized labour is mostly possible. Many things have a use lifetime. I'm sure once upon a time, I would have needed a personal firearm to protect myself out on the Wild West but today I have lived more than a decade in the US unarmed and no bandits have accosted me yet. No doubt organized labour had value once and perhaps even the crime lords who controlled them provided societal utility but smashing the criminal element within has been good for America. It still exists but cut down quite a bit. Only old broken soldiers still fight won wars.
    - Apocryphon 3y ago
      You’re arguing against the utility of the Second Amendment here which already puts you out of step with the entirety of American custom and political culture. Good luck trying to apply logic or reason against entrenched tradition and identity. > smashing the criminal element within has been good for America That’s good, sounds like organized labor is now free to exist without any crime issues.

bee_rider 3y ago

If organizations (the unions) deciding not to do business with you is, by your definition, a “proxy legal system,” what do we have in the US? Proxy legal system of credit agencies and corporations? I’d take the unions I think.

renewiltord 3y ago
One must read the whole thing to understand it. If certain organizations can just choose to not do business with you and the de jure system says that the only way to get a legally required document is through those organizations, then those organizations are a proxy legal system. This does not seem particularly controversial to me. Yes, credit agencies and banking approximate such a proxy in the US but the limits of such a system in the US were tested when marijuana and pornography sellers were able to find a way to bank despite the rest of the system attempting to stop them.
- BobaFloutist 3y ago
  I can't legally drive without car insurance, and insurance companies can just decide not to do business with me. I can't get the service of TSA Pre without going through a private corporation that can easily decline to do business with me. Our national parks are largely run by (private) concessionaires. While I've never been banned from a national park, I bet I could be de facto banned from, say, Yosemite by pissing off Aeromark enough, even if I didn't violate any law or do anything against park rules.
  - renewiltord 3y ago
    Right, but the state does not mandate you receive insurance from a single company. You could, should you do desire, set up your own insurance company. There are open regulations that can be obeyed by anyone. TSA Precheck is administered by the TSA AFAIK, which is a DHS agency, not a private corporation. It's been a while since I signed up but IIRC it's run by the government. I actually believe that if Aramark (I assume that's who you meant by Aeromark) didn't let you visit Yosemite and you legally are allowed to, you'd probably win against them in court (in contrast to what's happening in Sweden).