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If your argument is that EU regulators need to be more like America's, boy, did you pick the wrong crowd to proselytize. People here are actually clued in to th

If your argument is that EU regulators need to be more like America's, boy, did you pick the wrong crowd to proselytize. People here are actually clued in to the dangers of big data.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
messe 3y ago
Honestly it can go either way here on HN. There’s a strong libertarian bias here that’ll jump at any chance to criticise what they see as “stifling innovation”.
- toolz 3y ago
  Well I mean that's the logical conclusion to what these regulations achieve. Don't get me wrong, I don't claim to know when it's worthwhile and when it isn't, but these regulations force companies pushing the envelope with new tech to slow down and do things differently. The intention is always good*, the outcome sometimes isn't. One doesn't have to affiliate with any political party to see this. *Charitably I think we can all agree there's likely someone with good intentions behind every regulation. I do understand that the whole or even the majority of intention behind some regulations may not be good.
  - messe 3y ago
    I don’t disagree, and I probably shouldn’t have put “stifling innovation” in quotes, as you’re right: that is the goal here. My criticism is more levied at those who treat the fact that regulations can increase the cost of doing business as inherently bad without stopping to consider that profits may not be the be all and end all.
    - whimsicalism 3y ago
      Not the be all and end all - but I do think there should be a strong presumption in favor of activities that consist of providing people with something they want in exchange for money. Generally those transactions are welfare improving. Indeed, significant improvements in welfare over the last century can be largely traced to the bubbling up of transactions like these. Sure, redistribute the winnings later on - but picking winners and banning certain transactions should be approached with skepticism. There should be significant foreseen externalities that are either evidentially obvious (e.g. climate change) or agreed upon by most people.
      - jodrellblank 3y ago
        > "I do think there should be a strong presumption in favor of activities that consist of providing people with something they want in exchange for money." > "There should be significant foreseen externalities that are either evidentially obvious" Wireheading. An obesity crisis[1] which costs $173Bn/year of medical treatment. $45Bn/year in lost productivity due to dental treatments[2]. Over half the uk drinking alcohol at harmful levels[3]. Hours of social media use per day linked to depressive symptoms and mental health issues[4]. People are manipulable. Sellers will supply as much temptation as the market will bear. We can't keep pretending that humans are perfectly rational massless chickens. Having CocaCola lobbying to sell in vending machines in schools, while TikTok catches children's attention and tells them they are fat and disgusting and just shrugging and saying the human caught in the middle should just pull on their self control bootstraps - society abandoning them to the monsters - is ridiculous, and gets more ridiculous year on year. [1] https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/adult.html https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/adult.html [2] https://www.cdc.gov/oralhealth/oral_health_disparities/index.htm https://www.cdc.gov/oralhealth/oral_health_disparities/index... [3] https://www.ias.org.uk/2023/01/30/what-happened-with-uk-alcohol-consumption-and-harm-in-2022/ https://www.ias.org.uk/2023/01/30/what-happened-with-uk-alco... [4] https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(18)30060-9/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5...
        whimsicalism 3y ago
        The children are mostly okay and I view this as a veil for conservatism because they don’t behave the same as you. Tiktok fat shaming is bad but leading your “society is dystopia” comment with obesity rates in the US is fine? More extensive redistribution rather than moral panic + regulation over tiktok. Let’s not waste time on speculative interventions.
- whimsicalism 3y ago
  We are approaching more regulation of tech than of major known bad industries like oil & gas, largely due to negative media coverage. I think that is a bad trend.
  - ragequittah 3y ago
    It really does astonish me when people point to 'negative media coverage' when the media is being pretty fair about it. I listen to takes on all sides, and they all point to major problems. On the left it's genocide / misinformation about things like vaccines, on the right it's censoring the Biden laptop / some deep state conspiracy that makes almost every doctor in the world misinform their patients. And both adequately show the main problem that's happening due to these tech platforms: extreme polarization.
    - whimsicalism 3y ago
      Hard for me to gauge how earnest this comment is - if the media is being fair about it, you wouldn't take their coverage as evidence of extreme polarization. But maybe you are being tongue in cheek?
      - ragequittah 3y ago
        Well the 'mainstream media' (I now hate this term) is being pretty fair, but you have offshoot "media" companies that aren't doing any real journalism, just riling up their fanbases to get more clicks/views. The 'real' media is being fair in criticizing the social media companies for promoting Fox News / OAN / whoever else as if they're on par with actual journalism. And for sending people down rabbit holes / filter bubbles so that when they see truth they scoff at it.
edgyquant 3y ago
The world isn’t so black and white. You can support EU regulators doing some things while agreeing they skew towards inefficient in other things.
- whimsicalism 3y ago
  EU gdp per capita was 90% of the US in 2013 and is now at ~65%. It’s a disaster over there and better inequality metrics in Europe do not make up for that level of disparate material abundance for all but the very poorest Americans.
  - scotty79 3y ago
    Isn't a part of that is because over recent decade Europe acquired a lot of very poor capitas courteousy of USA Africa and Middle Eastearn meddling?
  - RandomLensman 3y ago
    There is a fair amount of EURUSD FX change in that GDP change.
    - whimsicalism 3y ago
      EURUSD FX change also reflects real changes in our relative economies. The Fed can afford to engage in less contractionary policy because our economy is doing well and people want our exports.
      - RandomLensman 3y ago
        A little bit, but not much. However, FX reacts strongly to interest differentials in the short/medium-term.
  - jonathanstrange 3y ago
    But at what price? I've seen documentaries about homeless and drug addicts on the streets of US cities that made my skin crawl. Turbo-capitalism may work fine for the US GPD but it doesn't seem to have worked fine for the US population in general. In other words, the very poor you mention are increasing.
fooker 3y ago
Just because someone calls EU regulations bad, doesn't mean they are saying American regulations (/lack of..) are good. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma
- heroprotagonist 3y ago
  Oh don't worry, we'll get regulations once there are some clear market leaders who've implemented strong moats they can have codified into law to make competition impossible. Monopolistic regulation is how we got the internet into space, after all! /s --- /s, but not really /s: Google got so pissed off at the difficulty of fighting incumbents for every pole access to implement Fiber that they just said fuck it. They curbed back expansion plans and invested in SpaceX with the goal of just blasting the internet into space instead. Several years later.. space-internet from leo satellites.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
_heimdall 3y ago
To be fair, one solution is new regulations but another is removing legal protections. Consumers have effectively no avenue to legally challenge big tech. At best there are collective action lawsuits, but those end up with little more than rich legal firms and consumers wondering why anyone bothered to mail them a check for $1.58
- whimsicalism 3y ago
  Wrong - the people who actually get the legal firm to initiate the suit typically get much higher payout than generic class members, which makes sense imo and explicitly helps resolve the problem you are identifying.
  - _heimdall 3y ago
    Happy to be wrong there if those individuals who initiate the suit get a large return on it. I haven't heard of any major payouts there but honestly I don't know the last time I only saw the total suit amount or the tiny settlement amount I was offered, could definitely be a blind spot on my end.
whimsicalism 3y ago
Regulators in the EU are just trying to hamstring American tech competitors so they can build a nascent industry in Europe. But what they need is capital and capital is frightened by these sorts of moves so will stick to the US. EU legislators are simply hurting themselves, although I have heard that recently they are becoming aware of this problem. Wish those clued into the dangers of big data would name the precise concern they have. I agree there are concerns, but it seems like there is a sort of anti-tech motte-bailey constellation where every time I try to infer a specific concern people will claim that actually the concern is privacy, or fake news, or AI x-risk. Lots of dodging, little earnest discussion.
- RandomLensman 3y ago
  I would be surprised if building up a corresponding EU industry is really a motive beyond lip service. Probably for simpler motives of not wanting new technologies to disrupt comfortable middle class lives.
  - whimsicalism 3y ago
    The EU DMA law was specifically crafted to only target non-EU companies and they are on the record saying that they only picked the 6 or 7 largest companies because if they went beyond that it would start including European tech cos.
    - RandomLensman 3y ago
      Source? Because it really comes down to who it was.
      - whimsicalism 3y ago
        ‘ Schwab has repeatedly called for the need to limit the scope of the DMA to non-European firms. In May 2021, Schwab said, “Let’s focus first on the biggest problems, on the biggest bottlenecks. Let’s go down the line—one, two, three, four, five—and maybe six with Alibaba. But let’s not start with number seven to include a European gatekeeper just to please [U.S. president Joe] Biden.”’ from https://www.csis.org/analysis/implications-digital-markets-act-transatlantic-cooperation https://www.csis.org/analysis/implications-digital-markets-a... Intentionality seems pretty clear and this guy is highly relevant to the crafting of DMA. It’s just an approach to procedural lawmaking that is somewhat foreign to American minds that are used to ‘bill of attainder’ style concerns.

If your argument is that EU regulators need to be more like America's, boy, did you pick the wrong crowd to proselytize. People here are actually clued in to the dangers of big data.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

messe 3y ago

Honestly it can go either way here on HN. There’s a strong libertarian bias here that’ll jump at any chance to criticise what they see as “stifling innovation”.

toolz 3y ago
Well I mean that's the logical conclusion to what these regulations achieve. Don't get me wrong, I don't claim to know when it's worthwhile and when it isn't, but these regulations force companies pushing the envelope with new tech to slow down and do things differently. The intention is always good*, the outcome sometimes isn't. One doesn't have to affiliate with any political party to see this. *Charitably I think we can all agree there's likely someone with good intentions behind every regulation. I do understand that the whole or even the majority of intention behind some regulations may not be good.
- messe 3y ago
  I don’t disagree, and I probably shouldn’t have put “stifling innovation” in quotes, as you’re right: that is the goal here. My criticism is more levied at those who treat the fact that regulations can increase the cost of doing business as inherently bad without stopping to consider that profits may not be the be all and end all.
  - whimsicalism 3y ago
    Not the be all and end all - but I do think there should be a strong presumption in favor of activities that consist of providing people with something they want in exchange for money. Generally those transactions are welfare improving. Indeed, significant improvements in welfare over the last century can be largely traced to the bubbling up of transactions like these. Sure, redistribute the winnings later on - but picking winners and banning certain transactions should be approached with skepticism. There should be significant foreseen externalities that are either evidentially obvious (e.g. climate change) or agreed upon by most people.
    - jodrellblank 3y ago
      > "I do think there should be a strong presumption in favor of activities that consist of providing people with something they want in exchange for money." > "There should be significant foreseen externalities that are either evidentially obvious" Wireheading. An obesity crisis[1] which costs $173Bn/year of medical treatment. $45Bn/year in lost productivity due to dental treatments[2]. Over half the uk drinking alcohol at harmful levels[3]. Hours of social media use per day linked to depressive symptoms and mental health issues[4]. People are manipulable. Sellers will supply as much temptation as the market will bear. We can't keep pretending that humans are perfectly rational massless chickens. Having CocaCola lobbying to sell in vending machines in schools, while TikTok catches children's attention and tells them they are fat and disgusting and just shrugging and saying the human caught in the middle should just pull on their self control bootstraps - society abandoning them to the monsters - is ridiculous, and gets more ridiculous year on year. [1] https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/adult.html https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/data/adult.html [2] https://www.cdc.gov/oralhealth/oral_health_disparities/index.htm https://www.cdc.gov/oralhealth/oral_health_disparities/index... [3] https://www.ias.org.uk/2023/01/30/what-happened-with-uk-alcohol-consumption-and-harm-in-2022/ https://www.ias.org.uk/2023/01/30/what-happened-with-uk-alco... [4] https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5370(18)30060-9/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/eclinm/article/PIIS2589-5...
      - whimsicalism 3y ago
        The children are mostly okay and I view this as a veil for conservatism because they don’t behave the same as you. Tiktok fat shaming is bad but leading your “society is dystopia” comment with obesity rates in the US is fine? More extensive redistribution rather than moral panic + regulation over tiktok. Let’s not waste time on speculative interventions.
whimsicalism 3y ago
We are approaching more regulation of tech than of major known bad industries like oil & gas, largely due to negative media coverage. I think that is a bad trend.
- ragequittah 3y ago
  It really does astonish me when people point to 'negative media coverage' when the media is being pretty fair about it. I listen to takes on all sides, and they all point to major problems. On the left it's genocide / misinformation about things like vaccines, on the right it's censoring the Biden laptop / some deep state conspiracy that makes almost every doctor in the world misinform their patients. And both adequately show the main problem that's happening due to these tech platforms: extreme polarization.
  - whimsicalism 3y ago
    Hard for me to gauge how earnest this comment is - if the media is being fair about it, you wouldn't take their coverage as evidence of extreme polarization. But maybe you are being tongue in cheek?
    - ragequittah 3y ago
      Well the 'mainstream media' (I now hate this term) is being pretty fair, but you have offshoot "media" companies that aren't doing any real journalism, just riling up their fanbases to get more clicks/views. The 'real' media is being fair in criticizing the social media companies for promoting Fox News / OAN / whoever else as if they're on par with actual journalism. And for sending people down rabbit holes / filter bubbles so that when they see truth they scoff at it.

edgyquant 3y ago

The world isn’t so black and white. You can support EU regulators doing some things while agreeing they skew towards inefficient in other things.

whimsicalism 3y ago
EU gdp per capita was 90% of the US in 2013 and is now at ~65%. It’s a disaster over there and better inequality metrics in Europe do not make up for that level of disparate material abundance for all but the very poorest Americans.
- scotty79 3y ago
  Isn't a part of that is because over recent decade Europe acquired a lot of very poor capitas courteousy of USA Africa and Middle Eastearn meddling?
- RandomLensman 3y ago
  There is a fair amount of EURUSD FX change in that GDP change.
  - whimsicalism 3y ago
    EURUSD FX change also reflects real changes in our relative economies. The Fed can afford to engage in less contractionary policy because our economy is doing well and people want our exports.
    - RandomLensman 3y ago
      A little bit, but not much. However, FX reacts strongly to interest differentials in the short/medium-term.
- jonathanstrange 3y ago
  But at what price? I've seen documentaries about homeless and drug addicts on the streets of US cities that made my skin crawl. Turbo-capitalism may work fine for the US GPD but it doesn't seem to have worked fine for the US population in general. In other words, the very poor you mention are increasing.

fooker 3y ago

Just because someone calls EU regulations bad, doesn't mean they are saying American regulations (/lack of..) are good. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma

heroprotagonist 3y ago
Oh don't worry, we'll get regulations once there are some clear market leaders who've implemented strong moats they can have codified into law to make competition impossible. Monopolistic regulation is how we got the internet into space, after all! /s --- /s, but not really /s: Google got so pissed off at the difficulty of fighting incumbents for every pole access to implement Fiber that they just said fuck it. They curbed back expansion plans and invested in SpaceX with the goal of just blasting the internet into space instead. Several years later.. space-internet from leo satellites.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

_heimdall 3y ago

To be fair, one solution is new regulations but another is removing legal protections. Consumers have effectively no avenue to legally challenge big tech. At best there are collective action lawsuits, but those end up with little more than rich legal firms and consumers wondering why anyone bothered to mail them a check for $1.58

whimsicalism 3y ago
Wrong - the people who actually get the legal firm to initiate the suit typically get much higher payout than generic class members, which makes sense imo and explicitly helps resolve the problem you are identifying.
- _heimdall 3y ago
  Happy to be wrong there if those individuals who initiate the suit get a large return on it. I haven't heard of any major payouts there but honestly I don't know the last time I only saw the total suit amount or the tiny settlement amount I was offered, could definitely be a blind spot on my end.

whimsicalism 3y ago

Regulators in the EU are just trying to hamstring American tech competitors so they can build a nascent industry in Europe. But what they need is capital and capital is frightened by these sorts of moves so will stick to the US. EU legislators are simply hurting themselves, although I have heard that recently they are becoming aware of this problem. Wish those clued into the dangers of big data would name the precise concern they have. I agree there are concerns, but it seems like there is a sort of anti-tech motte-bailey constellation where every time I try to infer a specific concern people will claim that actually the concern is privacy, or fake news, or AI x-risk. Lots of dodging, little earnest discussion.

RandomLensman 3y ago
I would be surprised if building up a corresponding EU industry is really a motive beyond lip service. Probably for simpler motives of not wanting new technologies to disrupt comfortable middle class lives.
- whimsicalism 3y ago
  The EU DMA law was specifically crafted to only target non-EU companies and they are on the record saying that they only picked the 6 or 7 largest companies because if they went beyond that it would start including European tech cos.
  - RandomLensman 3y ago
    Source? Because it really comes down to who it was.
    - whimsicalism 3y ago
      ‘ Schwab has repeatedly called for the need to limit the scope of the DMA to non-European firms. In May 2021, Schwab said, “Let’s focus first on the biggest problems, on the biggest bottlenecks. Let’s go down the line—one, two, three, four, five—and maybe six with Alibaba. But let’s not start with number seven to include a European gatekeeper just to please [U.S. president Joe] Biden.”’ from https://www.csis.org/analysis/implications-digital-markets-act-transatlantic-cooperation https://www.csis.org/analysis/implications-digital-markets-a... Intentionality seems pretty clear and this guy is highly relevant to the crafting of DMA. It’s just an approach to procedural lawmaking that is somewhat foreign to American minds that are used to ‘bill of attainder’ style concerns.