4 ms·

I'm a bit disappointed in all this "bah humbug, I can manage my credit cards" attitude. That site is specifically for people who are struggling to manage their

by neilk 18y ago

I'm a bit disappointed in all this "bah humbug, I can manage my credit cards" attitude. That site is specifically for people who are struggling to manage their finances. I'm not really sold that their reasons for not accepting credit cards make sense (lack of fraud protection is the biggest problem). But it makes some psychological sense. You don't see a lot of AA meetings held in bars. Also, complaining that the average yokel can't manage their credit is like complaining that users can't deal with a command-line interface. Sure the discipline to learn it would pay off, but most people aren't wired that way. Furthermore the credit system as we have it now is designed, by very talented professionals, to prey on common flaws in the human mammal's ability to assess risk and future obligation. Everybody has something that they're irrational about. Don't make me ask you how much time you've spent on WoW this month. Lastly, those of us on this board are probably lucky to have relatively high-paying jobs, even if we were less-than-perfect students or tried startup life for a while. The demand is just that great. But software is a huge anomaly in the North American economy. Wages for most people have been flat, relative to inflation, for decades. And furthermore, the risk of sudden and prolonged drops in income has been much higher since 1970 or so. For hackers that means okay, okay, I'll take the stupid J2EE job. For the average North American worker, it might mean accepting some stupid low wage service job. Anyway, the point is, most families have been making up the difference with credit cards. They're not living extravagantly and still they're falling behind. See this lecture by Elizabeth Warren, "The Coming Collapse of the Middle Class". (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akVL7QY0S8A http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akVL7QY0S8A) that punctures some of the myths with hard stats.

Tichy 18y ago
"Also, complaining that the average yokel can't manage their credit is like complaining that users can't deal with a command-line interface. Sure the discipline to learn it would pay off, but most people aren't wired that way." That is a very, very scary statement. Basically it implies that most people are doomed to live a live in dependency and slavery, because they will always depend on the goodwill of other people to not screw them over. Maybe it even implies that in the long run communism is the only workable system. I can't imagine that the majority of people is THAT bad at maths :-/ I mean it is just basic addition and substraction. Even if you can only count to 5, you could get a rough idea of the state of your credit (number on bank account has less digits than number on credit card debt == bad).
- rthomas6 18y ago
  Sure, people know that they shouldn't spend more than they make and --Oh look! There's a sale today at the mall; I have a credit card and it's a good deal, brb. It's about discipline more than it is being good with numbers. Sometimes I would imagine it would be hard for people to look at their bank account and see enough money in it to purchase X, so they use their credit card to purchase X only to spend the money in their bank account on something like groceries later.
- jerf 18y ago
  "Basically it implies that most people are doomed to live a live in dependency and slavery, because they will always depend on the goodwill of other people to not screw them over. Maybe it even implies that in the long run communism is the only workable system." - except that communism only makes it harder to survive without "other people", AKA "The Party", screwing you over. With capitalism, you can get out with programs like this and discipline. With communism, you have no such option. (One of the things I never understand about communists spouting off about capitalistic exploitation... by the same standards you're accusing capitalism of exploiting me, communism only exploits me harder and with no hope of escape. Not progress. The answer to this paradox is that the communists always assume The Party is a magical fairyland group of people which, unlike every other group of people every formed, only has your best interests at heart, whereas they grant no such fairyland powers to anybody else.)
  - Tichy 18y ago
    I am definitely NOT a fan of communism. Just saying that the statement "people can't handle credit cards" seems to imply that people are unable to act for their own good. That in turn would imply that the majority of people needs a dictatorship or equivalent to get by.
- GavinB 18y ago
  We don't need communism. Just basic protection from loan sharks, con artists, and the worst dishonest business practices. Libertarians may hate it, but consumer protections make the lives of most people simpler, safer, and more free. They also reward honest businesspeople, rather than rewarding the con artists who are the least detectable.
yummyfajitas 18y ago
Just a note, this idea that wages have been flat relative to inflation is true. But that doesn't mean quite what you think it means. Inflation (at least CPI inflation) measures the cost of a basket of goods in dollars. But that basket of goods has grown over time! So the same wage now buys more stuff. Incidentally, Elizabeth Warren is a propaganda artist. She has "hard stats", but they often don't mean what you think they mean. Read Todd Zywicki's debunking of her to get a flavor for how she works: http://volokh.com/posts/1108558247.shtml http://volokh.com/posts/1108558247.shtml http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2008_04_27-2008_05_03.shtml#1209323112 http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2008_04_27-2008_05_03.sht... I'm not claiming the video you cite is right or wrong (it's 57 minutes long, I'd rather just skim the paper), just suggesting that she deserves Michael Moore levels of skepticism.
- neilk 18y ago
  Thanks, I'll check it out. But I do recommend watching the whole presentation if you have the time -- especially before you start calling people "propaganda artists". That implies deliberate deception and razzle-dazzle to con the unwary. If she's really trying to foment unrest among the working classes she's kind of doing it wrong, with a rather unfashionable pantsuit and a series of dull charts and graphs. I get the sense she honestly believes in her data, but perhaps she is simply honestly mistaken? Anyway, something to think about.
  - yummyfajitas 18y ago
    I'm asserting that she does something along those lines. I'll take one example from her medical bankruptcy study. This is the study, widely described by the media as asserting that 50% of bankruptcies are caused by medical bills or serious medical problems. http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CE2DD133BF931A35751C0A9639C8B63 http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CE2DD133BF... You need to actually read the study rather than listen to her talks to discover that "medical problems" includes "alcohol or drug addiction" and "uncontrolled gambling." http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/content/abstract/hlthaff.w5.63 http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/content/abstract/hlthaf... This is far from the only example where she plays games of this nature. Read Todd Zywicki's debunkings of her, she seems to make mistakes like this all the time. I suspect that congress and the media, rather than the working classes, is her target.

by neilk 18y ago

Tichy 18y ago

"Also, complaining that the average yokel can't manage their credit is like complaining that users can't deal with a command-line interface. Sure the discipline to learn it would pay off, but most people aren't wired that way." That is a very, very scary statement. Basically it implies that most people are doomed to live a live in dependency and slavery, because they will always depend on the goodwill of other people to not screw them over. Maybe it even implies that in the long run communism is the only workable system. I can't imagine that the majority of people is THAT bad at maths :-/ I mean it is just basic addition and substraction. Even if you can only count to 5, you could get a rough idea of the state of your credit (number on bank account has less digits than number on credit card debt == bad).

rthomas6 18y ago
Sure, people know that they shouldn't spend more than they make and --Oh look! There's a sale today at the mall; I have a credit card and it's a good deal, brb. It's about discipline more than it is being good with numbers. Sometimes I would imagine it would be hard for people to look at their bank account and see enough money in it to purchase X, so they use their credit card to purchase X only to spend the money in their bank account on something like groceries later.
jerf 18y ago
"Basically it implies that most people are doomed to live a live in dependency and slavery, because they will always depend on the goodwill of other people to not screw them over. Maybe it even implies that in the long run communism is the only workable system." - except that communism only makes it harder to survive without "other people", AKA "The Party", screwing you over. With capitalism, you can get out with programs like this and discipline. With communism, you have no such option. (One of the things I never understand about communists spouting off about capitalistic exploitation... by the same standards you're accusing capitalism of exploiting me, communism only exploits me harder and with no hope of escape. Not progress. The answer to this paradox is that the communists always assume The Party is a magical fairyland group of people which, unlike every other group of people every formed, only has your best interests at heart, whereas they grant no such fairyland powers to anybody else.)
- Tichy 18y ago
  I am definitely NOT a fan of communism. Just saying that the statement "people can't handle credit cards" seems to imply that people are unable to act for their own good. That in turn would imply that the majority of people needs a dictatorship or equivalent to get by.
GavinB 18y ago
We don't need communism. Just basic protection from loan sharks, con artists, and the worst dishonest business practices. Libertarians may hate it, but consumer protections make the lives of most people simpler, safer, and more free. They also reward honest businesspeople, rather than rewarding the con artists who are the least detectable.

yummyfajitas 18y ago

Just a note, this idea that wages have been flat relative to inflation is true. But that doesn't mean quite what you think it means. Inflation (at least CPI inflation) measures the cost of a basket of goods in dollars. But that basket of goods has grown over time! So the same wage now buys more stuff. Incidentally, Elizabeth Warren is a propaganda artist. She has "hard stats", but they often don't mean what you think they mean. Read Todd Zywicki's debunking of her to get a flavor for how she works: http://volokh.com/posts/1108558247.shtml http://volokh.com/posts/1108558247.shtml http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2008_04_27-2008_05_03.shtml#1209323112 http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2008_04_27-2008_05_03.sht... I'm not claiming the video you cite is right or wrong (it's 57 minutes long, I'd rather just skim the paper), just suggesting that she deserves Michael Moore levels of skepticism.

neilk 18y ago
Thanks, I'll check it out. But I do recommend watching the whole presentation if you have the time -- especially before you start calling people "propaganda artists". That implies deliberate deception and razzle-dazzle to con the unwary. If she's really trying to foment unrest among the working classes she's kind of doing it wrong, with a rather unfashionable pantsuit and a series of dull charts and graphs. I get the sense she honestly believes in her data, but perhaps she is simply honestly mistaken? Anyway, something to think about.
- yummyfajitas 18y ago
  I'm asserting that she does something along those lines. I'll take one example from her medical bankruptcy study. This is the study, widely described by the media as asserting that 50% of bankruptcies are caused by medical bills or serious medical problems. http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CE2DD133BF931A35751C0A9639C8B63 http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CE2DD133BF... You need to actually read the study rather than listen to her talks to discover that "medical problems" includes "alcohol or drug addiction" and "uncontrolled gambling." http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/content/abstract/hlthaff.w5.63 http://content.healthaffairs.org/cgi/content/abstract/hlthaf... This is far from the only example where she plays games of this nature. Read Todd Zywicki's debunkings of her, she seems to make mistakes like this all the time. I suspect that congress and the media, rather than the working classes, is her target.