3 ms·

Engineers are treated like robots.

hef19898 3y ago
And yet, the majority seems to oppose unionizing despite calling themselves tech workers. Puzzling, how often people act against their own interests.
- loup-vaillant 3y ago
  That seems to be mostly a US thing. Programmers there seems to be more libertarian than elsewhere, and unions are seen as, if not an embodiment of Big Bad Communism, at least a recognition that we’re not as independent as we might would like. Here in France we’re hardly opposed to unions. We’re lazy in not joining for sure, and some do say they’re useless, but almost no one would dare suggest they’re bad. By the way I believe the difference between our ways of thinking goes beyond such politics, and influence our technical decisions as well. Someone who’s all about negative freedom (lack of restrictions) and distrusting authorities (most notably governments), is I think more likely to prefer permissive licences and dynamic typing. Conversely, those who prefer static typing are more likely to see programming as a branch of applied maths, accept more immediate loss of freedom for a greater good, and believe that a government can be trustworthy even if they may not like their current one.
- Salgat 3y ago
  It's because the top earners make obscene levels of money, and a union might disrupt that. So you have a situation where a company might only lose lower performers to unionization, which they can afford to handle.
  - w0m 3y ago
    Partly true. Unions are a way to balance power disparity between Owner and Worker. Currently, tech mostly has more work to be done than engineers to do said work - so the balance is tipped toward the individual. (At least in the US). Once that balance is tipped the other way, the value of Unions will go up dramatically.
- mmcdermott 3y ago
  > And yet, the majority seems to oppose unionizing despite calling themselves tech workers. I find this an interesting statement because it equivocates self-identification with a socio-economic class (Workers) with a banal statement of fact ("I am employed doing work in a certain field"). The identification with Workers as a class is a political-philosophical stance, whether in the old school Labor vs. Management sense, or Marx's Proletariat vs. Bourgeoisie or some other. Is it really so difficult to believe that workers in the second sense (the set of people providing technical expertise for money) have a diversity of views on any subject? > Puzzling, how often people act against their own interests. Perhaps. As humans we can all be short-sighted. It is also possible that the evils of working in the tech field are somewhat exaggerated. We are paid well relative to the median, we get to work in conditions that would have been considered luxurious across most of human history (temperature controlled indoors, without physical labor), and can pick our level of engagement (working at high finance or in an early startup is trading high risk and stress for the promise of a better payout, working in established businesses allows for fewer hours and less stress).
- DiggyJohnson 3y ago
  It's not a statement of fact that we know whether a union for software engineers would be good for these workers. The jury is still out.

hef19898 3y ago

And yet, the majority seems to oppose unionizing despite calling themselves tech workers. Puzzling, how often people act against their own interests.

loup-vaillant 3y ago
That seems to be mostly a US thing. Programmers there seems to be more libertarian than elsewhere, and unions are seen as, if not an embodiment of Big Bad Communism, at least a recognition that we’re not as independent as we might would like. Here in France we’re hardly opposed to unions. We’re lazy in not joining for sure, and some do say they’re useless, but almost no one would dare suggest they’re bad. By the way I believe the difference between our ways of thinking goes beyond such politics, and influence our technical decisions as well. Someone who’s all about negative freedom (lack of restrictions) and distrusting authorities (most notably governments), is I think more likely to prefer permissive licences and dynamic typing. Conversely, those who prefer static typing are more likely to see programming as a branch of applied maths, accept more immediate loss of freedom for a greater good, and believe that a government can be trustworthy even if they may not like their current one.
Salgat 3y ago
It's because the top earners make obscene levels of money, and a union might disrupt that. So you have a situation where a company might only lose lower performers to unionization, which they can afford to handle.
- w0m 3y ago
  Partly true. Unions are a way to balance power disparity between Owner and Worker. Currently, tech mostly has more work to be done than engineers to do said work - so the balance is tipped toward the individual. (At least in the US). Once that balance is tipped the other way, the value of Unions will go up dramatically.
mmcdermott 3y ago
> And yet, the majority seems to oppose unionizing despite calling themselves tech workers. I find this an interesting statement because it equivocates self-identification with a socio-economic class (Workers) with a banal statement of fact ("I am employed doing work in a certain field"). The identification with Workers as a class is a political-philosophical stance, whether in the old school Labor vs. Management sense, or Marx's Proletariat vs. Bourgeoisie or some other. Is it really so difficult to believe that workers in the second sense (the set of people providing technical expertise for money) have a diversity of views on any subject? > Puzzling, how often people act against their own interests. Perhaps. As humans we can all be short-sighted. It is also possible that the evils of working in the tech field are somewhat exaggerated. We are paid well relative to the median, we get to work in conditions that would have been considered luxurious across most of human history (temperature controlled indoors, without physical labor), and can pick our level of engagement (working at high finance or in an early startup is trading high risk and stress for the promise of a better payout, working in established businesses allows for fewer hours and less stress).
DiggyJohnson 3y ago
It's not a statement of fact that we know whether a union for software engineers would be good for these workers. The jury is still out.