6 ms·

The current pricing structure is discouraging backers, in my opinion. You tell us that when it's released it will most likely be pay-what-you-want, but if we p

by aiscott 14y ago

The current pricing structure is discouraging backers, in my opinion. You tell us that when it's released it will most likely be pay-what-you-want, but if we pay early and support the project we are pushed into $50. I can guarantee you that if you do pay-what-you-want, your average isn't going to be $50. I don't know what percentage of backers are the kind that do it merely to "support" a project, but I would guess it's not more than 10-15% of all backers for a given project. The rest want some value for their money beyond feeling good about backing. You state you chose $50 for a license because that is what you think it is worth. I think you'll find out that what you think people will pay you for something and what they are willing to pay differs by a factor of 2-3. So most of the people that want what you are going to make, even a little, probably don't want to spend more than $20 or $25. The difference between that and $50 is made up from goodwill, but that's really asking a lot of people. I would recommend making some more tiers between $5 and $50, where everything above $20 gets a license. This way you capture the people that just want the product, and give others the ability to show their goodwill as well. This isn't the kind of project that really needs swag. Nobody really wants a t-shirt. If you do something like promise to list backers (and their associated tiers) in the "credits" of the app, that would probably be great for most people. edit: typos, and wording

LinXitoW 14y ago
I think its always hard for software kickstarters to offer anything interesting besides the actual product. As you've said, in this case, even merchandise doesn't really make sense. The only tier, apart from a 15$ software tier(as its been standard), that would make sense to me personally(and financially) would be an option to vote on what language he creates support for first(after he's done with the initial Clojure version).
latch 14y ago
Dead horse but, without being able to see upvotes, Chris has no way of knowing if 2 people agree with this or 200. This is a wasted opportunity to help. For what it's worth, I agree, especially on the t-shirt. I stopped reading after $20 because (a) I sure as heck don't want a tshirt and figured everything else would include it, but that doesn't matter because (b) I have no desire to "invest" more.
- ibdthor 14y ago
  For awhile now though, there's been a $15 tier, and currently only 3 backers have chosen that option. Given the cost ineffectiveness of a t-shirt, particularly at a low price like $15, other than Chris' eternal gratitude, what sort of recompense would people want for that level of support? Almost 30 times the number of people went for the $100 beta access level, and only slightly fewer went for the $50 license, so apparently it's popular enough, but what's the best way to get support at a $10 or $15 level?
  - SomeCallMeTim 14y ago
    >but what's the best way to get support at a $10 or $15 level? That's obvious: Include a full copy of the product at that level. Call it "no support" or something, but if you're going to be doing pay-what-you-want, then go ahead and start now.
  - latch 14y ago
    He can obviously charge what he wants, but I think my parent was spot on. $50 is too much as the first tier where you actually get something [you want]. This is especially true considering the final product will be pay-what-you-want. I think playing with support options or possibly upgrade paths ($20 get you free upgrades for 1 year, $50 gets you free upgrades for 2 years or somehting) might be a solution...though I'm not sure myself.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
jessep 14y ago
I agree. I was eager to contribute but saw the page and didn't do anything. The rewards just seemed kind of stingy and the target seemed high. It's software, zero replication cost. Everyone who contributes should get a copy, and additional rewards should encourage additional generosity.
- icandoitbetter 14y ago
  Similar experience.
- subpixel 14y ago
  $200k is presumptuous, really. If you look at the top-funded technology projects, they all have low goals and excessive results: http://kck.st/J7kUqn http://kck.st/J7kUqn A high goal on Kickstarter /is like a high price/ and seems to trigger similar supporter/customer behavior. When I saw the Light Table video on HN I flipped out. I want this! But when I saw this campaign something cooled my jets. I'm not sure I'd pay $50 if it was for sale right now. If I'm supporting its creation, and speculating at that, I need a more alluring price and/or a story that makes me forget about all price concerns. If I were the creator, I'd seriously consider pay-what-you-want.
  - ibdknox 14y ago
    I would argue few are as ambitious either. To put this into perspective, the VS team is numbered in the thousands. We're talking a small team, but a team nonetheless, and it's hard to imagine being able to keep a team together for a year at less than 200k. In this case, it's not a matter of presumption, it's a matter of knowing the reality of what is involved in actually building this thing.
    - subpixel 14y ago
      If that's what it takes, by all means they should get it. I think the best advice then is to simply make the offer as remarkable as the ambition, so we all get on board. Edit: I did't mean to suggest the goal is unreasonable or unattainable. I was just trying to explain the not-positive reaction I had to seeing it. Like shopping, not all price reactions are logical.
6ren 14y ago
If it's worth $50, give it to early-adopters/supporters for 50%, because unlike buying something for $50, they don't get it now (and there's many a ways for a project to not deliver). In this promotion phase, it's good to have exciting specials. (e.g. Notch's 50% beta Minecraft) Marginal cost of software is zero, more users = more evangelists etc. Saying "license" looks non-free. I guess it includes the closed-source plug-ins (?). Good to clarify.
- spyder 14y ago
  And they doing the opposite of this because they ask for double the price for early access, but currently it's the most popular option with 91 backers.
thehermit 14y ago
As of right now the $15 option has 0 backers. There is really no benefit to donate below $30 right now. I don't see why giving everyone beta access would be an issue. It gives some value to the lower tiers. Invite priority could still be from greatest to least but that last tier would see something eventually. Being able to only pay the difference when buying a licence is another option.
7rurl 14y ago
Agreed. $50 for a license it too high. Lowering it to $15 for a license would put it in impulse buy territory for most people, and you'd likely get a lot more backers and receive more money. Personally, I don't know you at all, so I have no reason to trust that you will produce something good, and so I don't want to gamble $50 on it. But, I would gamble $15 on it. The other software kickstarters I've backed have included a copy of the product for the lowest tier (usually $15), and then added swag like t-shirts at the higher tiers. Something like this: $15: Light Table license $30: Light Table license and included in the list of contributors $50: Light Table license, included in list of contributors, and early access to beta $100: Light Table license, included in list of contributors, early access to betas, and t-shirt Lowering the early access will get you more beta testers, and raising the t-shirt higher will make you have to ship less t-shirts.
- james33 14y ago
  That would be absolutely perfect. Plus, let's face it, this won't be a success in the long run if a lot of people aren't using it and there isn't a community behind it. The goal right now needs to build a large user base, not squeeze every last dime you can get in the fundraising portion. This is ultimately supposed to be a platform right? The profits will come from the long tail with upgrades to a large number of users and add-ons like new language support, etc.
  - kamaal 14y ago
    According to me tools have practically zero chances of survival without communities rallying behind them. This looks like such a cool idea. I think their primary concern must be to release a basic thing out first and then iterate over it. This way they will get both contributions and the product going. Decide what your design goals are, define what code and quality goes in and out of your repo. Build something basic, release it and then iterate. Contributions and donations will follow. But if you are expecting mass adoption for a tool designed primarily for Clojure then, Clojure itself is in low adoption stage now. On top of that people who use clojure wanting to use will be fewer(Emacs + Slime really works well). So the initial payment model with only Clojure support may not bring them much money. This definitely has to be a platform like Emacs. And then the money can come from upgrades, major revisions. Also it would have been nice if language used to extend this was Clojure itself. We desperately need some modern GUI candy on an Emacs like editor which can be extensible by Lisp.
lightblade 14y ago
I agree. $50 is too much for a prototype. But I would gladly pay $50 if this is already a developed product and ready to be used.
Toenex 14y ago
Also this http://www.andrewbragdon.com/codebubbles_site.asp http://www.andrewbragdon.com/codebubbles_site.asp

by aiscott 14y ago

LinXitoW 14y ago

I think its always hard for software kickstarters to offer anything interesting besides the actual product. As you've said, in this case, even merchandise doesn't really make sense. The only tier, apart from a 15$ software tier(as its been standard), that would make sense to me personally(and financially) would be an option to vote on what language he creates support for first(after he's done with the initial Clojure version).

latch 14y ago

Dead horse but, without being able to see upvotes, Chris has no way of knowing if 2 people agree with this or 200. This is a wasted opportunity to help. For what it's worth, I agree, especially on the t-shirt. I stopped reading after $20 because (a) I sure as heck don't want a tshirt and figured everything else would include it, but that doesn't matter because (b) I have no desire to "invest" more.

ibdthor 14y ago
For awhile now though, there's been a $15 tier, and currently only 3 backers have chosen that option. Given the cost ineffectiveness of a t-shirt, particularly at a low price like $15, other than Chris' eternal gratitude, what sort of recompense would people want for that level of support? Almost 30 times the number of people went for the $100 beta access level, and only slightly fewer went for the $50 license, so apparently it's popular enough, but what's the best way to get support at a $10 or $15 level?
- SomeCallMeTim 14y ago
  >but what's the best way to get support at a $10 or $15 level? That's obvious: Include a full copy of the product at that level. Call it "no support" or something, but if you're going to be doing pay-what-you-want, then go ahead and start now.
- latch 14y ago
  He can obviously charge what he wants, but I think my parent was spot on. $50 is too much as the first tier where you actually get something [you want]. This is especially true considering the final product will be pay-what-you-want. I think playing with support options or possibly upgrade paths ($20 get you free upgrades for 1 year, $50 gets you free upgrades for 2 years or somehting) might be a solution...though I'm not sure myself.
deleted 14y ago
[deleted]

jessep 14y ago

I agree. I was eager to contribute but saw the page and didn't do anything. The rewards just seemed kind of stingy and the target seemed high. It's software, zero replication cost. Everyone who contributes should get a copy, and additional rewards should encourage additional generosity.

icandoitbetter 14y ago
Similar experience.
subpixel 14y ago
$200k is presumptuous, really. If you look at the top-funded technology projects, they all have low goals and excessive results: http://kck.st/J7kUqn http://kck.st/J7kUqn A high goal on Kickstarter /is like a high price/ and seems to trigger similar supporter/customer behavior. When I saw the Light Table video on HN I flipped out. I want this! But when I saw this campaign something cooled my jets. I'm not sure I'd pay $50 if it was for sale right now. If I'm supporting its creation, and speculating at that, I need a more alluring price and/or a story that makes me forget about all price concerns. If I were the creator, I'd seriously consider pay-what-you-want.
- ibdknox 14y ago
  I would argue few are as ambitious either. To put this into perspective, the VS team is numbered in the thousands. We're talking a small team, but a team nonetheless, and it's hard to imagine being able to keep a team together for a year at less than 200k. In this case, it's not a matter of presumption, it's a matter of knowing the reality of what is involved in actually building this thing.
  - subpixel 14y ago
    If that's what it takes, by all means they should get it. I think the best advice then is to simply make the offer as remarkable as the ambition, so we all get on board. Edit: I did't mean to suggest the goal is unreasonable or unattainable. I was just trying to explain the not-positive reaction I had to seeing it. Like shopping, not all price reactions are logical.

6ren 14y ago

If it's worth $50, give it to early-adopters/supporters for 50%, because unlike buying something for $50, they don't get it now (and there's many a ways for a project to not deliver). In this promotion phase, it's good to have exciting specials. (e.g. Notch's 50% beta Minecraft) Marginal cost of software is zero, more users = more evangelists etc. Saying "license" looks non-free. I guess it includes the closed-source plug-ins (?). Good to clarify.

spyder 14y ago
And they doing the opposite of this because they ask for double the price for early access, but currently it's the most popular option with 91 backers.

thehermit 14y ago

As of right now the $15 option has 0 backers. There is really no benefit to donate below $30 right now. I don't see why giving everyone beta access would be an issue. It gives some value to the lower tiers. Invite priority could still be from greatest to least but that last tier would see something eventually. Being able to only pay the difference when buying a licence is another option.

7rurl 14y ago

Agreed. $50 for a license it too high. Lowering it to $15 for a license would put it in impulse buy territory for most people, and you'd likely get a lot more backers and receive more money. Personally, I don't know you at all, so I have no reason to trust that you will produce something good, and so I don't want to gamble $50 on it. But, I would gamble $15 on it. The other software kickstarters I've backed have included a copy of the product for the lowest tier (usually $15), and then added swag like t-shirts at the higher tiers. Something like this: $15: Light Table license $30: Light Table license and included in the list of contributors $50: Light Table license, included in list of contributors, and early access to beta $100: Light Table license, included in list of contributors, early access to betas, and t-shirt Lowering the early access will get you more beta testers, and raising the t-shirt higher will make you have to ship less t-shirts.

james33 14y ago
That would be absolutely perfect. Plus, let's face it, this won't be a success in the long run if a lot of people aren't using it and there isn't a community behind it. The goal right now needs to build a large user base, not squeeze every last dime you can get in the fundraising portion. This is ultimately supposed to be a platform right? The profits will come from the long tail with upgrades to a large number of users and add-ons like new language support, etc.
- kamaal 14y ago
  According to me tools have practically zero chances of survival without communities rallying behind them. This looks like such a cool idea. I think their primary concern must be to release a basic thing out first and then iterate over it. This way they will get both contributions and the product going. Decide what your design goals are, define what code and quality goes in and out of your repo. Build something basic, release it and then iterate. Contributions and donations will follow. But if you are expecting mass adoption for a tool designed primarily for Clojure then, Clojure itself is in low adoption stage now. On top of that people who use clojure wanting to use will be fewer(Emacs + Slime really works well). So the initial payment model with only Clojure support may not bring them much money. This definitely has to be a platform like Emacs. And then the money can come from upgrades, major revisions. Also it would have been nice if language used to extend this was Clojure itself. We desperately need some modern GUI candy on an Emacs like editor which can be extensible by Lisp.

lightblade 14y ago

I agree. $50 is too much for a prototype. But I would gladly pay $50 if this is already a developed product and ready to be used.

Toenex 14y ago

Also this http://www.andrewbragdon.com/codebubbles_site.asp http://www.andrewbragdon.com/codebubbles_site.asp