7 ms·

The summary includes no details of the testing methodology, just results. No hardware. No justification of the games. I love gaming on Arch. But I am stupid e

by Affric 3y ago

The summary includes no details of the testing methodology, just results. No hardware. No justification of the games. I love gaming on Arch. But I am stupid enough to use an nvidia card, which means that I have no Wayland. I am eating shit due to the drivers every few months. There are a whole host of good games with awful DRM that I can’t play. Steam is good but it’s still DRM. The summary provided article gives the vibe that it wants to pump up Linux’s tyres rather than either demonstrating Linux’s superiority or making the case that you should be gaming on Linux.

shmerl 3y ago
You should be gaming on Linux, but you should be using AMD for it too :) GOG games are playable fine, you don't need Steam to play them.
cassianoleal 3y ago
> Steam is good but it’s still DRM. Yes, most games on Steam have DRM. Steam is not synonimous with DRM though. https://www.howtogeek.com/813209/psa-not-all-steam-games-have-drm-heres-how-to-tell/ https://www.howtogeek.com/813209/psa-not-all-steam-games-hav...
- m463 3y ago
  Many of those games are on GOG as well, which is drm-free. https://www.gog.com https://www.gog.com "DRM-free makes it easy to re-download games, back them up on external hard drives, and enjoy their single-player mode offline." I am very happy with gog. though not all games are on there, if they are, it is a no-brainer to get them there.
  - pezezin 3y ago
    Steam is the only platform that provides a Linux client, and Valve has provided massive support to Linux with the development of Proton, SteamOS and the Steam Deck. I have bought a few games in GOG, but until the give us proper Linux support, I won't give them any money.
    - m463 3y ago
      To be clear, I have purchased and run many linux games on gog. (that said, I don't use galaxy, I've been using https://github.com/eddie3/gogrepo https://github.com/eddie3/gogrepo for updates)
    - cassianoleal 3y ago
      > until the give us proper Linux support, I won't give them any money Technically, they don't need to do that - you can run GoG games via Heroic Launcher or even via Steam+Proton by adding them as external games. If your stance is of a more political nature, that doesn't matter. Personally, I find myself somewhere in between. On the one hand, Steam is really helping improve support for gaming on Linux (and they've made such good progress that I don't even bother with Windows at all). On the other hand, GoG are fully committed to not selling DRM-ridden crap.
      - pezezin 3y ago
        I know that there are alternative launchers, I play the 6 GoG games I have through Lutris. But if I pay for a product I don't want to mess with unofficial and unsupported third-party launchers, at that point I might as well pirate the game.
        cassianoleal 3y ago
        I'm not sure I follow. The "launcher" really is the .exe . This is especially true for any DRM-free game or application, which we have already agreed is all of those bought on GoG. WINE (and maybe Proton) is your compatibility layer because you're trying to run _an application_ (games included) on a platform it's not written for. The reason Steam has a Linux client with Proton integration is not so you, random Linux gamer, can have an easy time running games on Linux. It's mostly 2fold: 1. so that you, random Linux gamer, can run Steam DRM games on Linux at all; 2. so that they can launch products like the Steam Deck without paying license fees, or having to deal with, Microsoft and Windows. GoG has no such needs. You already have everything you need to run their games. That is their differentiation. One could argue that this is a better proposition for you, the consumer, than that of Steam.
nneonneo 3y ago
The article links to https://www.computerbase.de/2023-12/welche-linux-distribution-zum-spielen/ https://www.computerbase.de/2023-12/welche-linux-distributio... which does provide the testing methodology. Highlights (from auto-translated German): > Windows 11: All updates were installed and version 23.11.1 was used for the graphics driver. The global AMD graphics profile was set to standard. This means that Radeon Super Resolution, Anti-Lag and Boost were disabled in the test for better comparison with Linux. > The gaming PC used for the test was a system with AMD Ryzen 7 5800X on an Asus ROG Strix B550-A Gaming (Bios: 3202). The RAM was 32 GB DDR4-3600-RAM (CL18-22-22-44). The CPU was kept at temperature by a Scythe Mugen 5 while the system was in an open structure. The graphics card is a Sapphire RX 6700 XT Nitro+ with active Quiet BIOS. The monitor supported Full HD at 144 Hz. FreeSync was not active. > A handful of current or currently very popular (Cyberpunk 2077) Windows games were used for the test. This shows the importance of current program packages for performance. The performance under Linux can also be compared with Windows in current titles. > Since all games are versions designed for Windows, they ran using the Proton translation layer under Linux – specifically Proton Experimental as of 15 November 2023. Tested was carried out in Full HD. > Finally, the question arises as to whether these results can also be transferred to a Linux system with GeForce? Yes, all titles were able to run; the editorial team had already tested that. However, the performance remained out of consideration for the time being. In the near future, ComputerBase will also address this topic.
- lostmsu 3y ago
  Last time Linux + Wine benchmarking was discussed the major caveat was that some features in Wine implemented with empty stubs (e.g. the game may think soft shadows are computed but stub just always returns solid color). So take this methodology with a heavy grain of salt.
  - PrimeMcFly 3y ago
    What is a 'soft' shadow?
    - fingerlocks 3y ago
gpm 3y ago
I'm on Nvidia (2070 super), Arch, X11... It's been literally years since I've had to worry about drivers. Install the proprietary drivers (follow the arch wiki) and they "just work" in my experience. I'm not trying to say you couldn't have had issues, but I am saying I'd caution people from seeing that and assuming that they will have issues if they try this.
- pyr0hu 3y ago
  Yeah same, wanted to write a similar comment. I have played Diablo 4 , Cities, a ton of emulators with the proprietary nvidia driver and never had an issue. Update works 95% of the time, sometimes I have to do a manual 'mkinitcpio' but otherwise it's all working
- lll-o-lll 3y ago
  OK, but he specifically mentioned “it means I have no Wayland”. So does Wayland work?
  - Affric 3y ago
    I can launch wayland gnome sessions but they be janky as hell. It’s almost got me about to switch to KDE when I get a little time.
  - gpm 3y ago
    I haven't used Wayland in years and have no real intention of trying to again until x11 becomes unusable so I can't answer that. My initial interactions with waylands, years ago, including attempting to write a compositor from scratch, left a very source taste in my mouth and the strong impression that wayland was going in the wrong direction. Some things have no doubt changed by now, and a lot of cost has been sunk into it, so I'm deleting my rehashing of some of those concerns as no longer relevant, but I just have no interest in being an early adopter of it.
- Affric 3y ago
  I am not saying I am having heaps of issues. But for some reason the new open nvidia driver didn’t like my set up yesterday. mkinitcpio log shows it used the hook properly and then I did it manually. Proprietary one works fine and I am chill with that. But to reiterate, it’s just the the summary doesn’t go into enough detail. It’s just pumping up the tyres. My comment is not a criticism or evaluation of gaming on Arch or Linux or nvidia. It’s about the article.
eqvinox 3y ago
> But I am stupid enough to use an nvidia card, which means that I have no Wayland. I am eating shit due to the drivers every few months. Funny you would say this; I'm on AMD (Ryzen 6950HS IGD) and I'm eating shit due to the (FOSS) drivers every few days… to be fair I have two choices of distinct shit with X11 and Wayland, but neither is actually stable. And none of this affects gaming, just the desktop in general :/. The RX 6950 in the desktop is in fact working without issues (same driver stack). I suspect it's some memory management problem with the CPU/GPU sharing on the 6950HS. But I have no idea how to track it down… That said, FOSS GPU support has come a long way.
- mjevans 3y ago
  Laptop APU https://www.amd.com/en/products/apu/amd-ryzen-9-pro-6950hs https://www.amd.com/en/products/apu/amd-ryzen-9-pro-6950hs You don't describe the problems with anywhere near enough detail to guess at what the underlying issue might be. https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/AMDGPU https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/AMDGPU << Has a troubleshooting section that might help.
  - eqvinox 3y ago
    > You don't describe the problems with anywhere near enough detail to guess at what the underlying issue might be. That's because this is the HN comment section, not the f.d.o bug tracker. Since you seem to care, what I'm seeing is likely #2220, though the real problem for me is that dmesg output is not particularly helpful on its own and it's the entire desktop that crashes (as opposed to a single application that you could set Mesa/amdgpu debug flags on.) The fact that it "only" crashes about once per week complicates things further; aimlessly enabling debug options would probably result in getting buried in logs. [drm:amdgpu_job_timedout [amdgpu]] *ERROR* ring sdma0 timeout, signaled seq=24191109, emitted seq=24191111 [drm:amdgpu_job_timedout [amdgpu]] *ERROR* Process information: process pid 0 thread pid 0 This is really kind of a debugging worst case. There's pretty much no useful information here.
    - 29athrowaway 3y ago
justinclift 3y ago
As a data point, you can run a fair number of Windows games under Proton by using Lutris instead of Steam: * https://lutris.net https://lutris.net * https://github.com/lutris/lutris https://github.com/lutris/lutris It's an OSS game launcher that takes the place of Steam, and you can set things up to run locally so you don't even need an account on their system (lutris.net).
- 0xDEADFED5 3y ago
  there's also Goldberg Steam emulator that's effectively a 1 line config for many Steam games, but if the exe uses DRM you still have to unwrap it or crack it: https://mr_goldberg.gitlab.io/goldberg_emulator/ https://mr_goldberg.gitlab.io/goldberg_emulator/
- pixxel 3y ago
  Lutris is wonderful. I also recommend Bottles. https://usebottles.com/ https://usebottles.com/
  - justinclift 3y ago
    Thanks. Hadn't heard of Bottles before, it looks useful. The name makes it sound like it's related to the macOS package system Homebrew. Any idea if that's the case? :)
tarruda 3y ago
An alternative (which I use) is GPU passthrough, which works on laptops that have a physical HDMI output to the Nvidia card. I'm only a causal gamer, but never had any compatibility by simple running all games in a windows VM. This setup also serves as a way to sandbox all the windows spyware

by Affric 3y ago

shmerl 3y ago

You should be gaming on Linux, but you should be using AMD for it too :) GOG games are playable fine, you don't need Steam to play them.

cassianoleal 3y ago

> Steam is good but it’s still DRM. Yes, most games on Steam have DRM. Steam is not synonimous with DRM though. https://www.howtogeek.com/813209/psa-not-all-steam-games-have-drm-heres-how-to-tell/ https://www.howtogeek.com/813209/psa-not-all-steam-games-hav...

m463 3y ago
Many of those games are on GOG as well, which is drm-free. https://www.gog.com https://www.gog.com "DRM-free makes it easy to re-download games, back them up on external hard drives, and enjoy their single-player mode offline." I am very happy with gog. though not all games are on there, if they are, it is a no-brainer to get them there.
- pezezin 3y ago
  Steam is the only platform that provides a Linux client, and Valve has provided massive support to Linux with the development of Proton, SteamOS and the Steam Deck. I have bought a few games in GOG, but until the give us proper Linux support, I won't give them any money.
  - m463 3y ago
    To be clear, I have purchased and run many linux games on gog. (that said, I don't use galaxy, I've been using https://github.com/eddie3/gogrepo https://github.com/eddie3/gogrepo for updates)
  - cassianoleal 3y ago
    > until the give us proper Linux support, I won't give them any money Technically, they don't need to do that - you can run GoG games via Heroic Launcher or even via Steam+Proton by adding them as external games. If your stance is of a more political nature, that doesn't matter. Personally, I find myself somewhere in between. On the one hand, Steam is really helping improve support for gaming on Linux (and they've made such good progress that I don't even bother with Windows at all). On the other hand, GoG are fully committed to not selling DRM-ridden crap.
    - pezezin 3y ago
      I know that there are alternative launchers, I play the 6 GoG games I have through Lutris. But if I pay for a product I don't want to mess with unofficial and unsupported third-party launchers, at that point I might as well pirate the game.
      - cassianoleal 3y ago
        I'm not sure I follow. The "launcher" really is the .exe . This is especially true for any DRM-free game or application, which we have already agreed is all of those bought on GoG. WINE (and maybe Proton) is your compatibility layer because you're trying to run _an application_ (games included) on a platform it's not written for. The reason Steam has a Linux client with Proton integration is not so you, random Linux gamer, can have an easy time running games on Linux. It's mostly 2fold: 1. so that you, random Linux gamer, can run Steam DRM games on Linux at all; 2. so that they can launch products like the Steam Deck without paying license fees, or having to deal with, Microsoft and Windows. GoG has no such needs. You already have everything you need to run their games. That is their differentiation. One could argue that this is a better proposition for you, the consumer, than that of Steam.

nneonneo 3y ago

The article links to https://www.computerbase.de/2023-12/welche-linux-distribution-zum-spielen/ https://www.computerbase.de/2023-12/welche-linux-distributio... which does provide the testing methodology. Highlights (from auto-translated German): > Windows 11: All updates were installed and version 23.11.1 was used for the graphics driver. The global AMD graphics profile was set to standard. This means that Radeon Super Resolution, Anti-Lag and Boost were disabled in the test for better comparison with Linux. > The gaming PC used for the test was a system with AMD Ryzen 7 5800X on an Asus ROG Strix B550-A Gaming (Bios: 3202). The RAM was 32 GB DDR4-3600-RAM (CL18-22-22-44). The CPU was kept at temperature by a Scythe Mugen 5 while the system was in an open structure. The graphics card is a Sapphire RX 6700 XT Nitro+ with active Quiet BIOS. The monitor supported Full HD at 144 Hz. FreeSync was not active. > A handful of current or currently very popular (Cyberpunk 2077) Windows games were used for the test. This shows the importance of current program packages for performance. The performance under Linux can also be compared with Windows in current titles. > Since all games are versions designed for Windows, they ran using the Proton translation layer under Linux – specifically Proton Experimental as of 15 November 2023. Tested was carried out in Full HD. > Finally, the question arises as to whether these results can also be transferred to a Linux system with GeForce? Yes, all titles were able to run; the editorial team had already tested that. However, the performance remained out of consideration for the time being. In the near future, ComputerBase will also address this topic.

lostmsu 3y ago
Last time Linux + Wine benchmarking was discussed the major caveat was that some features in Wine implemented with empty stubs (e.g. the game may think soft shadows are computed but stub just always returns solid color). So take this methodology with a heavy grain of salt.
- PrimeMcFly 3y ago
  What is a 'soft' shadow?
  - fingerlocks 3y ago

gpm 3y ago

I'm on Nvidia (2070 super), Arch, X11... It's been literally years since I've had to worry about drivers. Install the proprietary drivers (follow the arch wiki) and they "just work" in my experience. I'm not trying to say you couldn't have had issues, but I am saying I'd caution people from seeing that and assuming that they will have issues if they try this.

pyr0hu 3y ago
Yeah same, wanted to write a similar comment. I have played Diablo 4 , Cities, a ton of emulators with the proprietary nvidia driver and never had an issue. Update works 95% of the time, sometimes I have to do a manual 'mkinitcpio' but otherwise it's all working
lll-o-lll 3y ago
OK, but he specifically mentioned “it means I have no Wayland”. So does Wayland work?
- Affric 3y ago
  I can launch wayland gnome sessions but they be janky as hell. It’s almost got me about to switch to KDE when I get a little time.
- gpm 3y ago
  I haven't used Wayland in years and have no real intention of trying to again until x11 becomes unusable so I can't answer that. My initial interactions with waylands, years ago, including attempting to write a compositor from scratch, left a very source taste in my mouth and the strong impression that wayland was going in the wrong direction. Some things have no doubt changed by now, and a lot of cost has been sunk into it, so I'm deleting my rehashing of some of those concerns as no longer relevant, but I just have no interest in being an early adopter of it.
Affric 3y ago
I am not saying I am having heaps of issues. But for some reason the new open nvidia driver didn’t like my set up yesterday. mkinitcpio log shows it used the hook properly and then I did it manually. Proprietary one works fine and I am chill with that. But to reiterate, it’s just the the summary doesn’t go into enough detail. It’s just pumping up the tyres. My comment is not a criticism or evaluation of gaming on Arch or Linux or nvidia. It’s about the article.

eqvinox 3y ago

> But I am stupid enough to use an nvidia card, which means that I have no Wayland. I am eating shit due to the drivers every few months. Funny you would say this; I'm on AMD (Ryzen 6950HS IGD) and I'm eating shit due to the (FOSS) drivers every few days… to be fair I have two choices of distinct shit with X11 and Wayland, but neither is actually stable. And none of this affects gaming, just the desktop in general :/. The RX 6950 in the desktop is in fact working without issues (same driver stack). I suspect it's some memory management problem with the CPU/GPU sharing on the 6950HS. But I have no idea how to track it down… That said, FOSS GPU support has come a long way.

mjevans 3y ago
Laptop APU https://www.amd.com/en/products/apu/amd-ryzen-9-pro-6950hs https://www.amd.com/en/products/apu/amd-ryzen-9-pro-6950hs You don't describe the problems with anywhere near enough detail to guess at what the underlying issue might be. https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/AMDGPU https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/AMDGPU << Has a troubleshooting section that might help.
- eqvinox 3y ago
  > You don't describe the problems with anywhere near enough detail to guess at what the underlying issue might be. That's because this is the HN comment section, not the f.d.o bug tracker. Since you seem to care, what I'm seeing is likely #2220, though the real problem for me is that dmesg output is not particularly helpful on its own and it's the entire desktop that crashes (as opposed to a single application that you could set Mesa/amdgpu debug flags on.) The fact that it "only" crashes about once per week complicates things further; aimlessly enabling debug options would probably result in getting buried in logs. [drm:amdgpu_job_timedout [amdgpu]] *ERROR* ring sdma0 timeout, signaled seq=24191109, emitted seq=24191111 [drm:amdgpu_job_timedout [amdgpu]] *ERROR* Process information: process pid 0 thread pid 0 This is really kind of a debugging worst case. There's pretty much no useful information here.
  - 29athrowaway 3y ago

justinclift 3y ago

As a data point, you can run a fair number of Windows games under Proton by using Lutris instead of Steam: * https://lutris.net https://lutris.net * https://github.com/lutris/lutris https://github.com/lutris/lutris It's an OSS game launcher that takes the place of Steam, and you can set things up to run locally so you don't even need an account on their system (lutris.net).

0xDEADFED5 3y ago
there's also Goldberg Steam emulator that's effectively a 1 line config for many Steam games, but if the exe uses DRM you still have to unwrap it or crack it: https://mr_goldberg.gitlab.io/goldberg_emulator/ https://mr_goldberg.gitlab.io/goldberg_emulator/
pixxel 3y ago
Lutris is wonderful. I also recommend Bottles. https://usebottles.com/ https://usebottles.com/
- justinclift 3y ago
  Thanks. Hadn't heard of Bottles before, it looks useful. The name makes it sound like it's related to the macOS package system Homebrew. Any idea if that's the case? :)

tarruda 3y ago

An alternative (which I use) is GPU passthrough, which works on laptops that have a physical HDMI output to the Nvidia card. I'm only a causal gamer, but never had any compatibility by simple running all games in a windows VM. This setup also serves as a way to sandbox all the windows spyware