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The question is, why do voters allow it? > England has been a two party state for a very long time, and has no real action plan to change that. Even when altern

The question is, why do voters allow it? > England has been a two party state for a very long time, and has no real action plan to change that. Even when alternative parties appear they are very cleverly shut down using smear and media campaigns. Most 40+ people remember Labour party rule of no services and no money, and draconian state. Likewise under Tory rule there are still poor services but the money has gone from none to a comfortable trickle, but the people are still afraid. Labour or Conservative are very similar parties once in power, except for the direction of annual pay rises to either public sector workers or private sector workers depending on who is in power at that time. The conservative playbook in the UK and elsewhere is to say there's not enough money and they must cut services. > it is not exclusively Tory, Labour did the same when in power. The people don't trust either, and are waiting for the coming election. I don't think Labour will win simply because too many voting people exist who went through hard times under Labour rule and will use their vote to prevent that happening probably for a few decades more. They still go along with it. Why? > Fear. Being in a state of destitution or being the one with a job and watching those who didn't get a job drift into poverty creates a very worrying environment.

flir 3y ago
> Most 40+ people So born 1983. > I don't think Labour will win simply because too many voting people exist who went through hard times under Labour rule and will use their vote to prevent that happening probably for a few decades more. Have you seen a poll lately? How old are you, if you have any functional memories of 1979?
- benbojangles 3y ago
  i'm 47, And you're patronising. Watch and see the vote result, people are going to vote conservative until a third more right leaning party arrives.
  - happymellon 3y ago
    I'm 43, and I hate to agree with you but... We have hit an all time low of Brexit success in opinion polls, but that's still 30%. Cameron held on to power with 33% of the vote. As much as I would like to see the Tories out, I'll believe it when I see it.
    - flir 3y ago
      2015 GE was 36.8% vs 30.4% of the vote resulting in 330 seats vs 258 seats (FPTP is a joke), so a 6.4% gap on the day. Opinion polling in the run-up to the 2015: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2015_United_Kingdom_general_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2015_U... Recent polling: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_U...
  - flir 3y ago
    I'll watch, and I'll see another 1997. Don't you remember what the last days of the Major government felt like? It felt like this. I'm older than you (not by much) and my earliest political memory is of the 1979 election. Nobody aged under 60 is voting based on what happened in the 70s, and damn few people over 60. Maybe some are still using it as an excuse, but I think most of them have moved on to the Iraq War as their acceptable fig leaf. By your logic (hordes of "Never Labour" voters still replaying the winter of discontent in their heads) 1997 couldn't have happened.
    - benbojangles 3y ago
      Don't you remember what the last days of the Major government felt like? It felt like this. > I remember, and today is nothing close to what you are suggesting, the climate is incredibly different now. Nobody aged under 60 is voting based on what happened in the 70s, and damn few people over 60. > Sorry to tell you but they are voting based on Tony Blair & Gordon Browns tenure and that won't change for a generation. Never Labour. > Due to 1997-2010. 2005-2010 were the years that cut hardest. It's only 13 years ago and well within the feelings and memories of a very large amount of the population. Don't you recall the pound value crash 2008, poor benefits, forced unpaid labour, peak housing price inflation, mass unemployment.
happymellon 3y ago
> Most 40+ people remember Labour party rule of no services and no money They would have grown up in the 90s. The Labour government oversaw a great rise in living standards, the largest reduction in child poverty, and the largest increase in GPD. Which the Tories have cut and spent since. Probably not the best example.
- benbojangles 3y ago
  simply not true. The Labour government brought 35% crash in the pound 2008, Forced unpaid labour to benefit private corporations (who remembers those who were forced to work unpaid at supermarkets to ensure they got a meagre £46 a week benefits), Houses which were forever increasing in value, became impossible to buy for the majority of graduates leaving university with £45k student loan debt. Hope left the building. I had friends who were picking food from bins and sleeping on floors and they were graduates, parents didn't want to help because they didn't understand the problem. And now those parents are dying out or siding with their children who are very angry and bitter and will vote conservative always, far-right if the option came along.
  - happymellon 3y ago
    That's nice. It's all completely wrong though. Blair came in 1997, stayed steady in 2001, and was already losing seats by the 2005 despite the improvements to living. Take a look at the graphs. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_Kingdom https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_Kingdo... Poverty in the UK dropped significantly under Labour, and after they were replaced it flattened. 2008 was a global financial crisis, so a little harsh to blame it on Labour. Could it have been handled better? Maybe, but the recovery here was pretty quick until the Tories decided to do what they can to extend it through breaking the country up via austerity. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007%E2%80%932008_financial_crisis https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007%E2%80%932008_financial_...
    - benbojangles 3y ago
      >Poverty in the UK dropped significantly under Labour > False & incorrect, Labour simply moved a few million 18-30s from unemployment to University/Loans thus changing the statistics. > and after they were replaced it flattened. > Those millions of students then became a heavily in debt unemployed.

flir 3y ago

> Most 40+ people So born 1983. > I don't think Labour will win simply because too many voting people exist who went through hard times under Labour rule and will use their vote to prevent that happening probably for a few decades more. Have you seen a poll lately? How old are you, if you have any functional memories of 1979?

benbojangles 3y ago
i'm 47, And you're patronising. Watch and see the vote result, people are going to vote conservative until a third more right leaning party arrives.
- happymellon 3y ago
  I'm 43, and I hate to agree with you but... We have hit an all time low of Brexit success in opinion polls, but that's still 30%. Cameron held on to power with 33% of the vote. As much as I would like to see the Tories out, I'll believe it when I see it.
  - flir 3y ago
    2015 GE was 36.8% vs 30.4% of the vote resulting in 330 seats vs 258 seats (FPTP is a joke), so a 6.4% gap on the day. Opinion polling in the run-up to the 2015: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2015_United_Kingdom_general_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2015_U... Recent polling: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_United_Kingdom_general_election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_U...
- flir 3y ago
  I'll watch, and I'll see another 1997. Don't you remember what the last days of the Major government felt like? It felt like this. I'm older than you (not by much) and my earliest political memory is of the 1979 election. Nobody aged under 60 is voting based on what happened in the 70s, and damn few people over 60. Maybe some are still using it as an excuse, but I think most of them have moved on to the Iraq War as their acceptable fig leaf. By your logic (hordes of "Never Labour" voters still replaying the winter of discontent in their heads) 1997 couldn't have happened.
  - benbojangles 3y ago
    Don't you remember what the last days of the Major government felt like? It felt like this. > I remember, and today is nothing close to what you are suggesting, the climate is incredibly different now. Nobody aged under 60 is voting based on what happened in the 70s, and damn few people over 60. > Sorry to tell you but they are voting based on Tony Blair & Gordon Browns tenure and that won't change for a generation. Never Labour. > Due to 1997-2010. 2005-2010 were the years that cut hardest. It's only 13 years ago and well within the feelings and memories of a very large amount of the population. Don't you recall the pound value crash 2008, poor benefits, forced unpaid labour, peak housing price inflation, mass unemployment.

happymellon 3y ago

> Most 40+ people remember Labour party rule of no services and no money They would have grown up in the 90s. The Labour government oversaw a great rise in living standards, the largest reduction in child poverty, and the largest increase in GPD. Which the Tories have cut and spent since. Probably not the best example.

benbojangles 3y ago
simply not true. The Labour government brought 35% crash in the pound 2008, Forced unpaid labour to benefit private corporations (who remembers those who were forced to work unpaid at supermarkets to ensure they got a meagre £46 a week benefits), Houses which were forever increasing in value, became impossible to buy for the majority of graduates leaving university with £45k student loan debt. Hope left the building. I had friends who were picking food from bins and sleeping on floors and they were graduates, parents didn't want to help because they didn't understand the problem. And now those parents are dying out or siding with their children who are very angry and bitter and will vote conservative always, far-right if the option came along.
- happymellon 3y ago
  That's nice. It's all completely wrong though. Blair came in 1997, stayed steady in 2001, and was already losing seats by the 2005 despite the improvements to living. Take a look at the graphs. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_Kingdom https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_the_United_Kingdo... Poverty in the UK dropped significantly under Labour, and after they were replaced it flattened. 2008 was a global financial crisis, so a little harsh to blame it on Labour. Could it have been handled better? Maybe, but the recovery here was pretty quick until the Tories decided to do what they can to extend it through breaking the country up via austerity. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007%E2%80%932008_financial_crisis https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007%E2%80%932008_financial_...
  - benbojangles 3y ago
    >Poverty in the UK dropped significantly under Labour > False & incorrect, Labour simply moved a few million 18-30s from unemployment to University/Loans thus changing the statistics. > and after they were replaced it flattened. > Those millions of students then became a heavily in debt unemployed.