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" It doesn’t matter that you think that coding interviews are useless. It doesn’t even matter if you are right or not. What matters is that the people who are i

" It doesn’t matter that you think that coding interviews are useless. It doesn’t even matter if you are right or not. What matters is that the people who are interviewing you, and who are deciding if you are going to get the job, think good performance on a coding interview is important." I don't want to work for a company where people think performance on a coding interview is important for a "senior" role. Those people are wrong. Oh, except now "senior" applies to anyone with 3 years in the industry, and most likely those people don't really know what they are doing. My suggestion: stop with the title inflation. If you believe you need to know if someone is competent in trick coding problems you should not be interviewing them for a senior role. It means your concept of "senior" is wrong and you should feel bad.

yieldcrv 3y ago
listen to this, this person is about to improve the GDP by a whole percentage point
boppo1 3y ago
I dunno, I think passing a handful of 'easy' leetcode problems seems fair. I'm someone who programmed garbage-that-got-the-job-done with python for years, now trying to break into a real job and making an effort to actually grasp data structures beyond dynamic arrays. It has really notched-up how I think about the problems. I've managed before and what I found aas that I didn't need to be as good as my best reports at their functions, but I did need a solid working grasp of their fundamentals. That said, requiring mastery of 'hard'-level problems is silly.
- cratermoon 3y ago
  > now trying to break into a real job and making an effort to actually grasp data structures beyond dynamic arrays OK, for an entry level to junior programmer trying to get into the mid-career levels it's possible that leetcode problems are useful for weeding out garbage programmers, folks who went to a code camp program and don't know anything about data structures and algorithms. These days what's called "senior" is, thanks to title inflation, really a mid-level job at best. For genuine senior work, which is sometimes called Staff or Principal level, the important skills are softer. There's a point where pure programming skills are complementary to the ability to understand and work with the business and understand how the organization generates revenue. At that point, whatever title it might have, the ability to solve an easy leetcode problem has no bearing on the ability to do the work expected. The challenges at that level are not "how do you code X", but rather "does coding X solve a problem that contributes to revenue, why or why not?"
gedy 3y ago
> If you believe you need to know if someone is competent in trick coding problems you should not be interviewing them for a senior role. Better yet - don't reach out to employed, senior devs for a role, then play these "gotta see if you're a faker!" games. It's like asking someone on a date, then asking for an STD test once they agree.
- drewcoo 3y ago
  I would expect someone who has not been dating in a while would be less likely to have an STI than someone who has been in a relationship but is actively (surreptitiously?) looking around for something better. Maybe you should talk to the unemployed devs!
nosefurhairdo 3y ago
Coding interviews are proxies for IQ and/or work ethic. If you're good at coding interviews you're either reasonably intelligent, reasonably hardworking, or some combination of the two. They're not supposed to represent what you do on the job. They're just a screen for people incapable or unwilling to pass them. It's also easier to objectively evaluate coding interview performance compared to "softer" interviews, which is helpful to reduce bias in hiring decisions. It is not an accident that coding interviews became the norm. Many of the most successful engineering organizations in the world are known for their coding interviews. Just because you don't like them doesn't mean they're an ineffective tool.
- cratermoon 3y ago
  SAT scores are the same thing. They measure an arbitrary quantity, allegedly a good proxy for real ability. News flash: some people test well but under perform, others test poorly but perform well. > objectively evaluate coding interview performance compared to "softer" interviews, which is helpful to reduce bias in hiring decisions. No, because those coding questions are themselves biased towards people who have the same experiences as those asking them. It's exactly the same as IQ and SAT tests: the bias is hidden in "objective" results. Men outscore women by an average of 37 points on the math section, and 7 points on the reading section. Asian students score the highest on average, with white students trailing them by 22 points on average, and black and hispanic students trailing white students by an average of 50 points. Finally, students who receive need based aid score an average of 20 points lower on both sections of the test. These results are held up as "proof" that white men are better than women of color. > It is not an accident that coding interviews became the norm. It's true. They became the norm because they allowed organizations to hide bias under cover of "objectivity" > Many of the most successful engineering organizations in the world I wonder how much more successful engineering organizations that didn't bias against applicants that score poorly on these tests would do. Unfortunately, we don't have a control group, so crowing about how great this or that company has done when comparing them to organizations with similar biases doesn't provide much insight.
  - nosefurhairdo 3y ago

yieldcrv 3y ago

listen to this, this person is about to improve the GDP by a whole percentage point

boppo1 3y ago

I dunno, I think passing a handful of 'easy' leetcode problems seems fair. I'm someone who programmed garbage-that-got-the-job-done with python for years, now trying to break into a real job and making an effort to actually grasp data structures beyond dynamic arrays. It has really notched-up how I think about the problems. I've managed before and what I found aas that I didn't need to be as good as my best reports at their functions, but I did need a solid working grasp of their fundamentals. That said, requiring mastery of 'hard'-level problems is silly.

cratermoon 3y ago
> now trying to break into a real job and making an effort to actually grasp data structures beyond dynamic arrays OK, for an entry level to junior programmer trying to get into the mid-career levels it's possible that leetcode problems are useful for weeding out garbage programmers, folks who went to a code camp program and don't know anything about data structures and algorithms. These days what's called "senior" is, thanks to title inflation, really a mid-level job at best. For genuine senior work, which is sometimes called Staff or Principal level, the important skills are softer. There's a point where pure programming skills are complementary to the ability to understand and work with the business and understand how the organization generates revenue. At that point, whatever title it might have, the ability to solve an easy leetcode problem has no bearing on the ability to do the work expected. The challenges at that level are not "how do you code X", but rather "does coding X solve a problem that contributes to revenue, why or why not?"

gedy 3y ago

> If you believe you need to know if someone is competent in trick coding problems you should not be interviewing them for a senior role. Better yet - don't reach out to employed, senior devs for a role, then play these "gotta see if you're a faker!" games. It's like asking someone on a date, then asking for an STD test once they agree.

drewcoo 3y ago
I would expect someone who has not been dating in a while would be less likely to have an STI than someone who has been in a relationship but is actively (surreptitiously?) looking around for something better. Maybe you should talk to the unemployed devs!

nosefurhairdo 3y ago

Coding interviews are proxies for IQ and/or work ethic. If you're good at coding interviews you're either reasonably intelligent, reasonably hardworking, or some combination of the two. They're not supposed to represent what you do on the job. They're just a screen for people incapable or unwilling to pass them. It's also easier to objectively evaluate coding interview performance compared to "softer" interviews, which is helpful to reduce bias in hiring decisions. It is not an accident that coding interviews became the norm. Many of the most successful engineering organizations in the world are known for their coding interviews. Just because you don't like them doesn't mean they're an ineffective tool.

cratermoon 3y ago
SAT scores are the same thing. They measure an arbitrary quantity, allegedly a good proxy for real ability. News flash: some people test well but under perform, others test poorly but perform well. > objectively evaluate coding interview performance compared to "softer" interviews, which is helpful to reduce bias in hiring decisions. No, because those coding questions are themselves biased towards people who have the same experiences as those asking them. It's exactly the same as IQ and SAT tests: the bias is hidden in "objective" results. Men outscore women by an average of 37 points on the math section, and 7 points on the reading section. Asian students score the highest on average, with white students trailing them by 22 points on average, and black and hispanic students trailing white students by an average of 50 points. Finally, students who receive need based aid score an average of 20 points lower on both sections of the test. These results are held up as "proof" that white men are better than women of color. > It is not an accident that coding interviews became the norm. It's true. They became the norm because they allowed organizations to hide bias under cover of "objectivity" > Many of the most successful engineering organizations in the world I wonder how much more successful engineering organizations that didn't bias against applicants that score poorly on these tests would do. Unfortunately, we don't have a control group, so crowing about how great this or that company has done when comparing them to organizations with similar biases doesn't provide much insight.
- nosefurhairdo 3y ago