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My biggest disappointment with Framework continues to be the fact I can get a similarly specced laptop from numerous other manufacturers for 40% or less of what

My biggest disappointment with Framework continues to be the fact I can get a similarly specced laptop from numerous other manufacturers for 40% or less of what the Framework 16" costs. Bestbuy has an ASUS laptop on sale right now for $1200 with damn near identical specs to the bottom tier Framework 16" with the GPU expansion board that Framework wants $2900 for. I love the idea of a repairable laptop, but reparability sure as heck isn't worth a 60%+ price premium far as I'm concerned.

the-grump 3y ago
By all means buy the Asus. Personally I'm done with the HP/Lenovo/Dell/Asus/Acer/<insert what I missed> offerings. They make junk that breaks, is impossible to fix and they bundle more and more malware every year. I'm happy to pay the small premium to a company that has different values. They need to cover their R&D and other costs that are higher per unit at their small scale. I'll be here to watch them grow and show the rest of the market how it's done.
- chiefalchemist 3y ago
  Most of us would probably agree. A premium is fine, expected even. But does the premium have to be so premium?
  - danparsonson 3y ago
    You think they're trying to price themselves out of the market? The relentless consumer focus on price is part of the reason we have so much non-repairable rubbish these days.
    - chiefalchemist 3y ago
      It was simple yes / no question. And somewhat rhetorical. Like it or not, price matters. Yes, there's added value. I'm simply asking a realistic case be made for the price of the added value. Put another way, I don't want to make a long term-ish investment in an ecosystem only to have that system disappear before I reap the benefits. That is, is Framework in touch with the market or not? For example, if Framework is upgradable *and* built to last, will one Framework machine equate to 2 - maybe even 3 - other brand machines? That closes the gap, yes? But if the brand can't communicate / sell that or similar benefits, the brand's mission will be over sooner rather than later.
      - organsnyder 3y ago
        In their three-year existence (during COVID, no less), they've shipped five different 13 inch laptop models: three Intel generations, a Chromebook edition of their latest Intel generation, and (most recently) an AMD variant. That's incredibly impressive by itself for such a new company, but on top of all that the parts from these systems are interchangeable and readily available at reasonable prices. Someone with a first-gen Intel Framework can upgrade to the latest AMD model for as little as $449.00, or around $500 for a bundle with RAM and the wifi module that you'll likely also need. If you're willing to stay a release behind (not possible with their AMD variant yet), you can remain almost current for much less money, at least judging by their pricing on their previous-gen Intel motherboards. I just ordered an AMD Framework 13 to replace my Thinkpad T480. My previous personal laptop was a Thinkpad T410, which lasted me for seven years. My T480 Thunderbolt controller died due to a firmware bug that I didn't update to fix in time. In addition to the loss of Thunderbolt, it's lead to some other issues (such as a ~30-second pause resuming from sleep) that make it annoying to use. Fixing it would require a motherboard replacement, which iFixit rates as "difficult". [1] https://frame.work/products/mainboard-kit-amd-ryzen-7040-series https://frame.work/products/mainboard-kit-amd-ryzen-7040-ser...
- esperent 3y ago
  My last two laptops have been highly repairable. Previous was a Clevo barebones (I forget the model, it was rebranded as Medion). Current is an MSI GE66. Both of them can be opened 60 seconds with a screwdriver. Both are gaming laptops since I do 3d work. So they are not featherweights. The Clevo is a workhorse that is still going strong as a media center like... 8 years later I think? It traveled the world with me for five of those years, across deserts, beaches, and jungles, and never complained. I can also speak for the quality of MSI support. When I first got the laptop there was some weird problem with hibernating - I think it was a Windows/Nvidia driver bug in the end and it resolved itself after a week or two. A few months ago the screen started to have issues. In both cases I was able to get in touch with someone at MSI support within a few hours via email, and the person carried out a real, human conversation with me (even made a few jokes). In the case of the screen they took it in for repairs, and I think they replaced pretty much the entire laptop internals and screen panel. Note that I had opened it to upgrade RAM and SSD so the factory seals were gone, but they didn't say anything about that. It took about 12 days to repair because they shipped the parts from Taiwan to Vietnam. Not great but not the worst I've heard. Initially they said it would take six weeks but when I said I needed it for work they expedited the shipment (six weeks would have been totally unacceptable and the tone of my message would be very different so, ah, well done to them there I guess).
  - the-grump 3y ago
    My experience is similar as far as big machines go. I have been thinkpads that are easy to work with. That said, the new stuff is definitely built cheaper than what you could buy in prior years, and the small "ultrabooks" are annoying to disassemble. They use hard clips requiring a spudger/pick, tiny screws, and in some cases solder modules onto the mainboard. Having a portable option that is built around being easy to repair and modify is something I have to support, even if it's not perfect.
- robotnikman 3y ago
  Same here. You really do get what you pay for when it comes to the Framework laptops.
- jamesgeck0 3y ago
  My HP laptop has an official support video on YouTube that shows how to tear down the entire device, with links to HP-blessed replacement components. It's not the most durable laptop, but it's pretty darn repairable. I was even able to swap in an (officially unsupported) Intel wifi card to replace the stock Broadcom card that was having driver issues with my network.
  - the-grump 3y ago
    I have opened basically every laptop I own(ed) to replace memory/SSD and sometimes other components. The easiest to work with besides framework are my beefy thinkpads. The sleek ones are a PITA. My framework is both portable and the absolute easiest to work with. And the fact that the screen, keyboard, touchpad, battery are all readily available and easy to replace feels great. Add to that the innovative configurable ports, and I can't really justify owning anything else. Three things I hope framework addresses in the next generation: more max memory than the current 64GB, ECC RAM, dual USB-C adapters. If they address those, I might turn my workstation into a server and make this my primary machine.
    - pdpi 3y ago
      > My framework is both portable and the absolute easiest to work with. It’s hard to overstate this. I bought the 13” DIY edition a few weeks back, and it was almost disappointingly easy to set up. I was expecting a bit of a project, but it took me about 40 minutes from opening the box to having Fedora installed and YouTube playing. And the chassis is as thin as my 14” MacBook Pro (15.95mm vs 15.5mm)
  - justinclift 3y ago
    > with links to HP-blessed replacement components. When Framework first came out, HP launched a "repairable" laptop that was as you said. Lots of useful support stuff on their website, etc. Unfortunately, it turned out that actually ordering any of those replacement parts from HP wasn't really practical. The parts with either permanently out of stock, or some huge wait time (1 year+ maybe?). Maybe things have gotten better...?
  - 3y ago
johnnyanmac 3y ago
>I love the idea of a repairable laptop, but reparability sure as heck isn't worth a 60%+ price premium far as I'm concerned. well with that attitude, it will never be worth it. I replace a laptop every 3-4 years for various reasons. I can upgrade the GPU in a framework for $500 every 2-3 years instead of grabbing a whole new laptop for $2000+*. If the core chasis/motherboard are sturdy enough to survive 2 laptop upgrades it's more than paid back its difference. I don't have one but am keeping a close eye on it. current laptop is 2.5 years old so I'm very interested to see how things will progress in 2-3 more years. ----- * for full transparency, my purchase history: - entry level HP back in 2012: $1200 new after customizing a lot of stuff on it (the base price was like $650). It was back when they threw in an Xbox 360 with the laptop; I never used that Xbox. - 2015 Asus strix laptop in 2015: ~1000 used, likely 1500 at market price - 2017 Razer Blade in 2018: ~1300 used. That thing was easily $2300+ because Razer. - finally, my current Asus ROG in 2021: ~$2700, pretty much has every bell and whistle at the time.
lopis 3y ago
This is such a silly comment. The reason those laptops are so cheap, is because those companies have cut all corners. Framework will eventually be able to lower their prices a bit with volume, but not a lot. Building a solid computer that lasts you 10+ years where you can swap parts and everything isn't soldered will always be much more expensive. If you can't afford that right now, I can understand that. But it's time for us in tech, who mostly can afford to vote with our wallets, to vote for the companies selling us systemic solutions to industry problem.

the-grump 3y ago

By all means buy the Asus. Personally I'm done with the HP/Lenovo/Dell/Asus/Acer/<insert what I missed> offerings. They make junk that breaks, is impossible to fix and they bundle more and more malware every year. I'm happy to pay the small premium to a company that has different values. They need to cover their R&D and other costs that are higher per unit at their small scale. I'll be here to watch them grow and show the rest of the market how it's done.

chiefalchemist 3y ago
Most of us would probably agree. A premium is fine, expected even. But does the premium have to be so premium?
- danparsonson 3y ago
  You think they're trying to price themselves out of the market? The relentless consumer focus on price is part of the reason we have so much non-repairable rubbish these days.
  - chiefalchemist 3y ago
    It was simple yes / no question. And somewhat rhetorical. Like it or not, price matters. Yes, there's added value. I'm simply asking a realistic case be made for the price of the added value. Put another way, I don't want to make a long term-ish investment in an ecosystem only to have that system disappear before I reap the benefits. That is, is Framework in touch with the market or not? For example, if Framework is upgradable *and* built to last, will one Framework machine equate to 2 - maybe even 3 - other brand machines? That closes the gap, yes? But if the brand can't communicate / sell that or similar benefits, the brand's mission will be over sooner rather than later.
    - organsnyder 3y ago
      In their three-year existence (during COVID, no less), they've shipped five different 13 inch laptop models: three Intel generations, a Chromebook edition of their latest Intel generation, and (most recently) an AMD variant. That's incredibly impressive by itself for such a new company, but on top of all that the parts from these systems are interchangeable and readily available at reasonable prices. Someone with a first-gen Intel Framework can upgrade to the latest AMD model for as little as $449.00, or around $500 for a bundle with RAM and the wifi module that you'll likely also need. If you're willing to stay a release behind (not possible with their AMD variant yet), you can remain almost current for much less money, at least judging by their pricing on their previous-gen Intel motherboards. I just ordered an AMD Framework 13 to replace my Thinkpad T480. My previous personal laptop was a Thinkpad T410, which lasted me for seven years. My T480 Thunderbolt controller died due to a firmware bug that I didn't update to fix in time. In addition to the loss of Thunderbolt, it's lead to some other issues (such as a ~30-second pause resuming from sleep) that make it annoying to use. Fixing it would require a motherboard replacement, which iFixit rates as "difficult". [1] https://frame.work/products/mainboard-kit-amd-ryzen-7040-series https://frame.work/products/mainboard-kit-amd-ryzen-7040-ser...
esperent 3y ago
My last two laptops have been highly repairable. Previous was a Clevo barebones (I forget the model, it was rebranded as Medion). Current is an MSI GE66. Both of them can be opened 60 seconds with a screwdriver. Both are gaming laptops since I do 3d work. So they are not featherweights. The Clevo is a workhorse that is still going strong as a media center like... 8 years later I think? It traveled the world with me for five of those years, across deserts, beaches, and jungles, and never complained. I can also speak for the quality of MSI support. When I first got the laptop there was some weird problem with hibernating - I think it was a Windows/Nvidia driver bug in the end and it resolved itself after a week or two. A few months ago the screen started to have issues. In both cases I was able to get in touch with someone at MSI support within a few hours via email, and the person carried out a real, human conversation with me (even made a few jokes). In the case of the screen they took it in for repairs, and I think they replaced pretty much the entire laptop internals and screen panel. Note that I had opened it to upgrade RAM and SSD so the factory seals were gone, but they didn't say anything about that. It took about 12 days to repair because they shipped the parts from Taiwan to Vietnam. Not great but not the worst I've heard. Initially they said it would take six weeks but when I said I needed it for work they expedited the shipment (six weeks would have been totally unacceptable and the tone of my message would be very different so, ah, well done to them there I guess).
- the-grump 3y ago
  My experience is similar as far as big machines go. I have been thinkpads that are easy to work with. That said, the new stuff is definitely built cheaper than what you could buy in prior years, and the small "ultrabooks" are annoying to disassemble. They use hard clips requiring a spudger/pick, tiny screws, and in some cases solder modules onto the mainboard. Having a portable option that is built around being easy to repair and modify is something I have to support, even if it's not perfect.
robotnikman 3y ago
Same here. You really do get what you pay for when it comes to the Framework laptops.
jamesgeck0 3y ago
My HP laptop has an official support video on YouTube that shows how to tear down the entire device, with links to HP-blessed replacement components. It's not the most durable laptop, but it's pretty darn repairable. I was even able to swap in an (officially unsupported) Intel wifi card to replace the stock Broadcom card that was having driver issues with my network.
- the-grump 3y ago
  I have opened basically every laptop I own(ed) to replace memory/SSD and sometimes other components. The easiest to work with besides framework are my beefy thinkpads. The sleek ones are a PITA. My framework is both portable and the absolute easiest to work with. And the fact that the screen, keyboard, touchpad, battery are all readily available and easy to replace feels great. Add to that the innovative configurable ports, and I can't really justify owning anything else. Three things I hope framework addresses in the next generation: more max memory than the current 64GB, ECC RAM, dual USB-C adapters. If they address those, I might turn my workstation into a server and make this my primary machine.
  - pdpi 3y ago
    > My framework is both portable and the absolute easiest to work with. It’s hard to overstate this. I bought the 13” DIY edition a few weeks back, and it was almost disappointingly easy to set up. I was expecting a bit of a project, but it took me about 40 minutes from opening the box to having Fedora installed and YouTube playing. And the chassis is as thin as my 14” MacBook Pro (15.95mm vs 15.5mm)
- justinclift 3y ago
  > with links to HP-blessed replacement components. When Framework first came out, HP launched a "repairable" laptop that was as you said. Lots of useful support stuff on their website, etc. Unfortunately, it turned out that actually ordering any of those replacement parts from HP wasn't really practical. The parts with either permanently out of stock, or some huge wait time (1 year+ maybe?). Maybe things have gotten better...?
- 3y ago

johnnyanmac 3y ago

>I love the idea of a repairable laptop, but reparability sure as heck isn't worth a 60%+ price premium far as I'm concerned. well with that attitude, it will never be worth it. I replace a laptop every 3-4 years for various reasons. I can upgrade the GPU in a framework for $500 every 2-3 years instead of grabbing a whole new laptop for $2000+*. If the core chasis/motherboard are sturdy enough to survive 2 laptop upgrades it's more than paid back its difference. I don't have one but am keeping a close eye on it. current laptop is 2.5 years old so I'm very interested to see how things will progress in 2-3 more years. ----- * for full transparency, my purchase history: - entry level HP back in 2012: $1200 new after customizing a lot of stuff on it (the base price was like $650). It was back when they threw in an Xbox 360 with the laptop; I never used that Xbox. - 2015 Asus strix laptop in 2015: ~1000 used, likely 1500 at market price - 2017 Razer Blade in 2018: ~1300 used. That thing was easily $2300+ because Razer. - finally, my current Asus ROG in 2021: ~$2700, pretty much has every bell and whistle at the time.

lopis 3y ago

This is such a silly comment. The reason those laptops are so cheap, is because those companies have cut all corners. Framework will eventually be able to lower their prices a bit with volume, but not a lot. Building a solid computer that lasts you 10+ years where you can swap parts and everything isn't soldered will always be much more expensive. If you can't afford that right now, I can understand that. But it's time for us in tech, who mostly can afford to vote with our wallets, to vote for the companies selling us systemic solutions to industry problem.