4 ms·

Wifi is easy... there's no way to send anything undetected, since you control the routers, etc. GSM->5G modems are a lot harder to debug... maybe now in recent

Wifi is easy... there's no way to send anything undetected, since you control the routers, etc. GSM->5G modems are a lot harder to debug... maybe now in recent years with cheaper SDRs, but a lot harder then wifi. And not sure why you'd be afraid of CCP, we saw the wikileaks, USA does a lot of similiarly bad stuff too and even got caught doing it... and if you live in a "western" country, USA has much easier access to you than China.

jacquesm 3y ago
You are assuming you have full insight into what the board is capable of.
- ajsnigrutin 3y ago
  What part don't I have insight into? At least the parts that could be exploited by china in some way that would affect me, and couldn't be detected?
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    Google 'the thing' and tell me that you could have predicted what it was and how it worked. Hardware is finicky in that way: you look at one thing it can be quite another.
jszymborski 3y ago
> And not sure why you'd be afraid of CCP, we saw the wikileaks, USA does a lot of similiarly bad stuff... I find little solace in this whataboutism.
- mardifoufs 3y ago
  It's not whatboutism when there's literally no proof that they are doing mass dragnet spying on western residents. And when we do have tons of proof of western governments doing exactly just that Again, it's a trendy buzzword to use but it literally isn't a catch all shield to argue that it's fine when we do it. When there's no proof of something happening, maybe we should focus on the thing that we know is happening instead of chasing literal ghosts
  - jszymborski 3y ago
    1) The activities of the US gov't have precisely nothing to do with the probability that a device from China has some backdoor or surveillance function. When someone raises this concern, the response "the USA has a history of surveiling its citizens" is not a rebuttal, it's irrelevant. Thus a whataboutism. 2) Your burden of proof might be different from mine, but one needs to be pretty naive to think that the CCP doesn't surveil western citizens. I doubt their intelligence apparatus is that bad at their job. In fact, I have plenty of reason to believe it's pretty great at it. [0] https://www.csis.org/analysis/how-chinese-communist-party-uses-cyber-espionage-undermine-american-economy https://www.csis.org/analysis/how-chinese-communist-party-us... [1] https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/04/27/china-ccp-spying-us-police-stations-influence-operations/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/04/27/china-ccp-spying-us-pol...
    - rowanG077 3y ago
      1) of course it does. This is an information cold war. If participant 1 is doing something then participant 2 is forced to do at least the same thing so as to ensure they don't fall behind. It's very naive to not expect the actions of one state to not affect the actions of the other.
      - seniorivn 3y ago
        you either intentionally or unintentionally phrased it in a way that blames unnamed participant 1. And given the context of this conversation, it seems that you blame US for CCP's inevitable spying. Seems weird given the kind of government CCP is(hint, the name). In my opinion US is only at fault for spying on it's own citizens(im not citizen nor resident of the us), and in doing so it undermined its counter intelegence actions against state adversaries. Next time there is a good guy in the white house, All intelligence apparatus should be dismantled and replaced with something more transparent for the people, even though the reality where most of the world is despotic by design and there for hostile to a supposed to be free nation is still there.
        3y ago
- ajsnigrutin 3y ago
  Op above me was bothered with the company being chinese, and I was pointing out the hypocracy because the chinese didn't get caught at a level nearly as bad as US did with wikileaks and that for most people in the west, it's better that the chinese find out that you did something bad than if your own intelligence agencies find out.
simondotau 3y ago
There’s no point having a vague Chinese back door in Espressif devices which security researchers could discover with relative ease. The remarkable prevalence of these chips in commodity consumer goods means that they’ve likely already been analysed by countless world governments and strategic enterprises. If the IoT ecosystem has any weak spots, it is the Tuya software stack. It would be much easier, much more useful layer to put a back door into that.

jacquesm 3y ago

You are assuming you have full insight into what the board is capable of.

ajsnigrutin 3y ago
What part don't I have insight into? At least the parts that could be exploited by china in some way that would affect me, and couldn't be detected?
- jacquesm 3y ago
  Google 'the thing' and tell me that you could have predicted what it was and how it worked. Hardware is finicky in that way: you look at one thing it can be quite another.

jszymborski 3y ago

> And not sure why you'd be afraid of CCP, we saw the wikileaks, USA does a lot of similiarly bad stuff... I find little solace in this whataboutism.

mardifoufs 3y ago
It's not whatboutism when there's literally no proof that they are doing mass dragnet spying on western residents. And when we do have tons of proof of western governments doing exactly just that Again, it's a trendy buzzword to use but it literally isn't a catch all shield to argue that it's fine when we do it. When there's no proof of something happening, maybe we should focus on the thing that we know is happening instead of chasing literal ghosts
- jszymborski 3y ago
  1) The activities of the US gov't have precisely nothing to do with the probability that a device from China has some backdoor or surveillance function. When someone raises this concern, the response "the USA has a history of surveiling its citizens" is not a rebuttal, it's irrelevant. Thus a whataboutism. 2) Your burden of proof might be different from mine, but one needs to be pretty naive to think that the CCP doesn't surveil western citizens. I doubt their intelligence apparatus is that bad at their job. In fact, I have plenty of reason to believe it's pretty great at it. [0] https://www.csis.org/analysis/how-chinese-communist-party-uses-cyber-espionage-undermine-american-economy https://www.csis.org/analysis/how-chinese-communist-party-us... [1] https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/04/27/china-ccp-spying-us-police-stations-influence-operations/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2023/04/27/china-ccp-spying-us-pol...
  - rowanG077 3y ago
    1) of course it does. This is an information cold war. If participant 1 is doing something then participant 2 is forced to do at least the same thing so as to ensure they don't fall behind. It's very naive to not expect the actions of one state to not affect the actions of the other.
    - seniorivn 3y ago
      you either intentionally or unintentionally phrased it in a way that blames unnamed participant 1. And given the context of this conversation, it seems that you blame US for CCP's inevitable spying. Seems weird given the kind of government CCP is(hint, the name). In my opinion US is only at fault for spying on it's own citizens(im not citizen nor resident of the us), and in doing so it undermined its counter intelegence actions against state adversaries. Next time there is a good guy in the white house, All intelligence apparatus should be dismantled and replaced with something more transparent for the people, even though the reality where most of the world is despotic by design and there for hostile to a supposed to be free nation is still there.
      - 3y ago
ajsnigrutin 3y ago
Op above me was bothered with the company being chinese, and I was pointing out the hypocracy because the chinese didn't get caught at a level nearly as bad as US did with wikileaks and that for most people in the west, it's better that the chinese find out that you did something bad than if your own intelligence agencies find out.

simondotau 3y ago

There’s no point having a vague Chinese back door in Espressif devices which security researchers could discover with relative ease. The remarkable prevalence of these chips in commodity consumer goods means that they’ve likely already been analysed by countless world governments and strategic enterprises. If the IoT ecosystem has any weak spots, it is the Tuya software stack. It would be much easier, much more useful layer to put a back door into that.