4 ms·

My friend who is studying to be a counselor put it to me this way: counsellors are usually ethically bound against giving strong interventions! If you go to a

My friend who is studying to be a counselor put it to me this way: counsellors are usually ethically bound against giving strong interventions! If you go to a counsellor and say "I'm feeling upset because my wife is yelling at me for cheating on her but I really want to keep cheating on her", an average counsellor can't say "well stop cheating on her, you numbskull" even if they know that's the best answer. Professional ethics dictates that they be neutral. So all they can really do is sit there and ask you questions about your feelings. The things that increase people's mental well-being are well researched and often obvious: lose weight, find a church, get a girlfriend, make more money, call your mom, join the Army. Things that a professional counsellor could never tell you to do! Not to say therapy is not a good idea for lots of people! But the modern need for therapy is not coming from some place of deep and widespread trauma. If anything, the opposite - we all live very comfortable lives full of emotional bed rest and mental junk food.

Gud 3y ago
Uhm, why would they be ethically bound to not tell me this? If I am going to a third party to adjust my behavior, I don’t want someone who is just going to validate my feelings. I want actionable advice.
- legitster 3y ago
  Because no insurance company is going to pay for someone to tell you that you'd probably be happier if you had more kids. Lol. So the entire industry has adopted a professional ethics code that is extremely edited. > If I am going to a third party to adjust my behavior, I don’t want someone who is just going to validate my feelings. I want actionable advice. I'm with you, but if you polled the average person looking for a therapist we are almost certainly in the minority.
- SuperNinKenDo 3y ago
  Well, imagine a world where counsellors could use their position with a constant roster of vulnerable people to, for instance, tell them to go to church. It's definitely potentially problematic. So psychologists have in some way developed an idea that their role is to facillitate people's mental well-being within whichever lifestyle they lead. This can be very effective for some things. For instance CBT can help you rewire your brain to work more the way you want. If you come to a counselor and say "I have anxiety with public speaking and want to get rid of it" then they have some tools that can help. But on more fundamental issues like "I live in a sick society", these tools can help you get through your day, maybe, but the actual remedy is more fundamental. This is why people need serious Liberal Arts and Humanities, but we as a society scoff at that more and more. Wonder if that has anything to do with our abject misery, hmmm.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    > tell them to go to church. I imagine that's not what they would say unless the patient were already of a religious bent. The mental health benefits of going to church are unrelated to the religion itself, but are related to having a supportive community and regular socialization. There are many other ways of getting those benefits. A good therapist would recommend whatever method the patient would be most likely to adhere to.
taurath 3y ago
That’s completely false - there is nothing in the code of ethics that precludes sound advice. The reason why a therapist might not reply “stop doing x” is because saying that is ineffective. It’s dramatically understating the complexity of behavior. That’s like saying rehabs should just have some grizzled old man telling people “just stop drinking”. If the simple answer worked, if it wasn’t more complex than you make it, then there would be no field of psychology in the first place. Lack of solution oriented advice is not a problem that anyone has.
- legitster 3y ago
  I think you misunderstood my point. I'm not saying that the advice therapists give is bad! Or even that it's not complex. The rehab is actually a good example. If someone has an alcohol problem there are a hundred different really intrusive interventions you are going to have to do completely outside of what a therapist alone is going to be able to accomplish.
  - taurath 3y ago
    With respect, you said that they are explicitly prevented from suggesting working interventions by their code of ethics, which is an easily falsifiable statement.
tessierashpool 3y ago
The things that increase people's mental well-being are well researched and often obvious: lose weight, find a church, get a girlfriend, make more money, call your mom, join the Army. Hilarious to imagine a ton of highly-trained psychologists complaining together about how the data shows that all they really need to do is tell people to go to church and join the Army, but they can't because of the rules of their professional associations.
- legitster 3y ago
  I mean, does that not describe much of the schtick of Joran Peterson, et al?
  - plagiarist 3y ago
    I don't really follow here. Is Jordan Peterson one of the sources claiming the real solution is church, army, etc., and that therapists aren't allowed to say so?
    - 000ooo000 3y ago
      I think you're responding to someone attempting to equate practicing psychologists with a 'public figure' giving general advice.
hotpotamus 3y ago
The church things seems pretty difficult if you're unable to believe in god though. Also the army one seems problematic; I know a guy living on mental health disability from the army and it doesn't look all that rosy to me.
- giraffe_lady 3y ago
  Nearly half the population is not even theoretically interested in getting a girlfriend either. I don't think legitster is giving out very good advice here.
  - hotpotamus 3y ago
    To be charitable, I could summarize them as saying that people are suffering from a lack of meaning in life (I'd put myself among those). The problem is that I don't think there really is any to be found in the end regardless of which institutions you try and engage with.
    - legitster 3y ago
      I mean, strictly on the basis of evidence-based medicine, the case for going to church is stronger than for some drugs that have passed the FDA approval process. https://academic.oup.com/ije/article/49/6/2030/5892419 https://academic.oup.com/ije/article/49/6/2030/5892419 https://news.gallup.com/opinion/polling-matters/389510/religion-wellbeing-update.aspx https://news.gallup.com/opinion/polling-matters/389510/relig... On both the basis of mental and physical health, the correlation with church attendance is one of the most robust and well studied. To my knowledge, none of the studied gauged the amount attendees believed or had meaning, but I'm sure it didn't hurt.
      - hotpotamus 3y ago
        The linked study suggests benefits to "individuals who already hold religious beliefs". I don't doubt that a belief that there is some all-powerful entity looking out for you and giving meaning is beneficial psychologically, but not all of us are capable of believing in such a force; I've never seen any evidence for it myself. If I told you that Mormons or Scientologists were the happiest people on average, would you consider joining them?
piva00 3y ago
Not true in my experience, none of my therapists have ever being absolutely and completely neutral. They might explore more a feeling with me, try to let me see a different perspective by myself but have never abstained from giving me their own opinions, and advice, when they thought it'd be helpful for my treatment. Perhaps it varies by culture/country? Because it's really way off experiences I know about (personal, friends, etc.).
- legitster 3y ago
  Maybe this depends on the experience of the therapist then. When my wife was assigned a therapist after having a miscarriage, she got a young person who never had any kids. She almost got nothing out of the experience and it's hard to imagine what she could have.
  - holden_nelson 3y ago
    Have you based all of your comments in this thread off of this single experience? I’ve seen 4 different therapists in my adult life, and I have yet to experience this strict neutrality adherence you’ve been describing.
CTDOCodebases 3y ago
I've heard something similar in regards to serious drug addiction. The councillor can't just point out to the client to recognise how low they have fallen in their life because a percentage of them might find this realisation overwhelming and just decide to end it. So, instead they tell the client that they are a victim of circumstance thereby resolving the client of their part in their own suffering. The predicament is that by doing this a certain amount will die from overdose or other factors related to their addiction anyway. While I am sure this is partially true I understand why this approach is taken. People have a tendency to push against criticism even if it is correct. Also there seems to be a bias whereby someone is more likely to go along with their own ideas than the suggestions of others. I guess this is due to the deep desire for agency that we all have as individuals.
- nathanaldensr 3y ago
  Then this makes counseling a sham. It's a lie. It's not counseling, it's telling people what they want to hear for money. No actual help is being provided. Sometimes, help is "tough."
  - CTDOCodebases 3y ago
    I wouldnt go that far. There is a difference between telling someone something directly versus pointing them in a direction to make their own conclusion.

Gud 3y ago

Uhm, why would they be ethically bound to not tell me this? If I am going to a third party to adjust my behavior, I don’t want someone who is just going to validate my feelings. I want actionable advice.

legitster 3y ago
Because no insurance company is going to pay for someone to tell you that you'd probably be happier if you had more kids. Lol. So the entire industry has adopted a professional ethics code that is extremely edited. > If I am going to a third party to adjust my behavior, I don’t want someone who is just going to validate my feelings. I want actionable advice. I'm with you, but if you polled the average person looking for a therapist we are almost certainly in the minority.
SuperNinKenDo 3y ago
Well, imagine a world where counsellors could use their position with a constant roster of vulnerable people to, for instance, tell them to go to church. It's definitely potentially problematic. So psychologists have in some way developed an idea that their role is to facillitate people's mental well-being within whichever lifestyle they lead. This can be very effective for some things. For instance CBT can help you rewire your brain to work more the way you want. If you come to a counselor and say "I have anxiety with public speaking and want to get rid of it" then they have some tools that can help. But on more fundamental issues like "I live in a sick society", these tools can help you get through your day, maybe, but the actual remedy is more fundamental. This is why people need serious Liberal Arts and Humanities, but we as a society scoff at that more and more. Wonder if that has anything to do with our abject misery, hmmm.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  > tell them to go to church. I imagine that's not what they would say unless the patient were already of a religious bent. The mental health benefits of going to church are unrelated to the religion itself, but are related to having a supportive community and regular socialization. There are many other ways of getting those benefits. A good therapist would recommend whatever method the patient would be most likely to adhere to.

taurath 3y ago

That’s completely false - there is nothing in the code of ethics that precludes sound advice. The reason why a therapist might not reply “stop doing x” is because saying that is ineffective. It’s dramatically understating the complexity of behavior. That’s like saying rehabs should just have some grizzled old man telling people “just stop drinking”. If the simple answer worked, if it wasn’t more complex than you make it, then there would be no field of psychology in the first place. Lack of solution oriented advice is not a problem that anyone has.

legitster 3y ago
I think you misunderstood my point. I'm not saying that the advice therapists give is bad! Or even that it's not complex. The rehab is actually a good example. If someone has an alcohol problem there are a hundred different really intrusive interventions you are going to have to do completely outside of what a therapist alone is going to be able to accomplish.
- taurath 3y ago
  With respect, you said that they are explicitly prevented from suggesting working interventions by their code of ethics, which is an easily falsifiable statement.

tessierashpool 3y ago

The things that increase people's mental well-being are well researched and often obvious: lose weight, find a church, get a girlfriend, make more money, call your mom, join the Army. Hilarious to imagine a ton of highly-trained psychologists complaining together about how the data shows that all they really need to do is tell people to go to church and join the Army, but they can't because of the rules of their professional associations.

legitster 3y ago
I mean, does that not describe much of the schtick of Joran Peterson, et al?
- plagiarist 3y ago
  I don't really follow here. Is Jordan Peterson one of the sources claiming the real solution is church, army, etc., and that therapists aren't allowed to say so?
  - 000ooo000 3y ago
    I think you're responding to someone attempting to equate practicing psychologists with a 'public figure' giving general advice.

hotpotamus 3y ago

The church things seems pretty difficult if you're unable to believe in god though. Also the army one seems problematic; I know a guy living on mental health disability from the army and it doesn't look all that rosy to me.

giraffe_lady 3y ago
Nearly half the population is not even theoretically interested in getting a girlfriend either. I don't think legitster is giving out very good advice here.
- hotpotamus 3y ago
  To be charitable, I could summarize them as saying that people are suffering from a lack of meaning in life (I'd put myself among those). The problem is that I don't think there really is any to be found in the end regardless of which institutions you try and engage with.
  - legitster 3y ago
    I mean, strictly on the basis of evidence-based medicine, the case for going to church is stronger than for some drugs that have passed the FDA approval process. https://academic.oup.com/ije/article/49/6/2030/5892419 https://academic.oup.com/ije/article/49/6/2030/5892419 https://news.gallup.com/opinion/polling-matters/389510/religion-wellbeing-update.aspx https://news.gallup.com/opinion/polling-matters/389510/relig... On both the basis of mental and physical health, the correlation with church attendance is one of the most robust and well studied. To my knowledge, none of the studied gauged the amount attendees believed or had meaning, but I'm sure it didn't hurt.
    - hotpotamus 3y ago
      The linked study suggests benefits to "individuals who already hold religious beliefs". I don't doubt that a belief that there is some all-powerful entity looking out for you and giving meaning is beneficial psychologically, but not all of us are capable of believing in such a force; I've never seen any evidence for it myself. If I told you that Mormons or Scientologists were the happiest people on average, would you consider joining them?

piva00 3y ago

Not true in my experience, none of my therapists have ever being absolutely and completely neutral. They might explore more a feeling with me, try to let me see a different perspective by myself but have never abstained from giving me their own opinions, and advice, when they thought it'd be helpful for my treatment. Perhaps it varies by culture/country? Because it's really way off experiences I know about (personal, friends, etc.).

legitster 3y ago
Maybe this depends on the experience of the therapist then. When my wife was assigned a therapist after having a miscarriage, she got a young person who never had any kids. She almost got nothing out of the experience and it's hard to imagine what she could have.
- holden_nelson 3y ago
  Have you based all of your comments in this thread off of this single experience? I’ve seen 4 different therapists in my adult life, and I have yet to experience this strict neutrality adherence you’ve been describing.

CTDOCodebases 3y ago

I've heard something similar in regards to serious drug addiction. The councillor can't just point out to the client to recognise how low they have fallen in their life because a percentage of them might find this realisation overwhelming and just decide to end it. So, instead they tell the client that they are a victim of circumstance thereby resolving the client of their part in their own suffering. The predicament is that by doing this a certain amount will die from overdose or other factors related to their addiction anyway. While I am sure this is partially true I understand why this approach is taken. People have a tendency to push against criticism even if it is correct. Also there seems to be a bias whereby someone is more likely to go along with their own ideas than the suggestions of others. I guess this is due to the deep desire for agency that we all have as individuals.

nathanaldensr 3y ago
Then this makes counseling a sham. It's a lie. It's not counseling, it's telling people what they want to hear for money. No actual help is being provided. Sometimes, help is "tough."
- CTDOCodebases 3y ago
  I wouldnt go that far. There is a difference between telling someone something directly versus pointing them in a direction to make their own conclusion.