7 ms·

There's an uptick in Amazon employees quitting

43 points by rokkitmensch 3y ago

ActorNightly 3y ago
Planned all along. Many roles were hired as remote, with then requiring people to relocate for RTO. Easiest way to downsize. The real reason for RTO is of course tax benefits that Amazon gets from local/state governments only if there are buts in seats in the office buildings (since people coming into the office means they are in the area which means that they spend money in local restaurants/shops, e.t.c)
- lopis 3y ago
  One think I've always wondered about RTO measures is, can they force you to choose bewteen RTO or resign? Or to they have to fire you (and with that entitle you to whatever compensation you deserve)?
  - bob67 3y ago
    How do you force someone to resign?
    - lebean 3y ago
      [dead]
    - lopis 3y ago
      That's what I'm asking?
    - bluefirebrand 3y ago
      It's referred to as Constructive Dismissal. It's basically the idea that you're being subjected to something outside of your contract that has made it impossible (in your view) to keep working for the company, and the company is not willing to accomodate you. Refusing to go to office when your contract says you are a remote employee is a textbook case of constructive dismissal. "You are placing a requirement on me that I find impossible to satisfy and you are not willing to negotiate. Therefore I am forced to resign"
    - ITB 3y ago
      Either they start coming to the office or their employment will be terminated. It’s not a resignation.
    - djtango 3y ago
      I heard that in Japan they will almost never fire someone, for various reasons. So when it's time to go there are stories of peoples desk being moved to the cupboard for example.
      - taftster 3y ago
        Or the added requirement to file additional TPM reports, possibly.
  - BetaDeltaAlpha 3y ago
    Are people entitled to severance in the USA? I thought severance packages generally come with some considerations about indemnifying the company and such. Its a deal, not an entitlement. Forcing an employee to resign is a "Constructive Dismissal" and there's plenty of case law around it.
    - ITB 3y ago
      No. There’s mandatory unemployment insurance/tax companies pay that will float employees terminated without cause for a little time, depending on the state. But it’s not high. Large companies tend to give decent exit packages though.
  - bluefirebrand 3y ago
    Depends entirely on you local labour laws and the contract you have signed with the company. If your local labour laws require compensation in cases of Constructive Dismissal, then you are entitled to some kind of severance package. If not, then it's possible your employment contract will have a clause for "in case of constructive dismissal we will pay X weeks based on employment length" or something. Maybe not likely, but certainly possible.
    - junofan 3y ago
      In the US it’s called constructive discharge. Good luck convincing a judge that asking a $400k/yr employee to show up to the office is so unreasonable that you were forced to quit.
  - ActorNightly 3y ago
    They fire you, with a very valid reason of not being in the office, which from a legal perspective is very hard to argue against on the employee side.
    - dolni 3y ago
      Is it very valid if they hired you as a remote employee to start with?
    - FireBeyond 3y ago
      At least in Washington state, that's a maybe. RCW 50.20.050 (https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=50.20.050 https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=50.20.050) says you can even quit and get unemployment if among several other items: > (vii) The claimant's worksite changed, such change caused a material increase in distance or difficulty of travel, and, after the change, the commute was greater than is customary for workers in the claimant's job classification and labor market;
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  > The real reason for RTO is of course tax benefits that Amazon gets from local/state governments only if there are buts in seats in the office buildings (since people coming into the office means they are in the area which means that they spend money in local restaurants/shops, e.t.c) Are these tax breaks enumerated and tracked somewhere? What departments would be appropriate to receive FOIA requests on the matter?
  - pixl97 3y ago
    Honestly a lot of these tax breaks are for local taxes so other than the county/city they are in, other than the local paper and the county courthouse I'm not sure if they have to be anywhere else.
    - toomuchtodo 3y ago
      I will have a database built. Thank you!
      - Serenacula 3y ago
        I understand the source of your name, I think.
        toomuchtodo 3y ago
        Yep!
    - susiecambria 3y ago
      The information may also show up in tax expenditure reports. And/or in legislation.
- JambalayaJim 3y ago
  Why is it so unbelievable that execs simply believe RTO is beneficial for their business?
remremz 3y ago
https://archive.is/nyGOK https://archive.is/nyGOK
Reubend 3y ago
Can you share some examples of tax benefits they got? I'm imagining that the cost of keeping a office open far exceeds the tax benefits they would receive in return, and I doubt that local governments really track the frequency of how often workers are going into the office. Probably, having people attend the office "on paper" but with a low mandated frequency like 1 day a week would be enough to legally satisfy whichever agreements they made.

43 points by rokkitmensch 3y ago

Planned all along. Many roles were hired as remote, with then requiring people to relocate for RTO. Easiest way to downsize. The real reason for RTO is of course tax benefits that Amazon gets from local/state governments only if there are buts in seats in the office buildings (since people coming into the office means they are in the area which means that they spend money in local restaurants/shops, e.t.c)

lopis 3y ago
One think I've always wondered about RTO measures is, can they force you to choose bewteen RTO or resign? Or to they have to fire you (and with that entitle you to whatever compensation you deserve)?
- bob67 3y ago
  How do you force someone to resign?
  - lebean 3y ago
    [dead]
  - lopis 3y ago
    That's what I'm asking?
  - bluefirebrand 3y ago
    It's referred to as Constructive Dismissal. It's basically the idea that you're being subjected to something outside of your contract that has made it impossible (in your view) to keep working for the company, and the company is not willing to accomodate you. Refusing to go to office when your contract says you are a remote employee is a textbook case of constructive dismissal. "You are placing a requirement on me that I find impossible to satisfy and you are not willing to negotiate. Therefore I am forced to resign"
  - ITB 3y ago
    Either they start coming to the office or their employment will be terminated. It’s not a resignation.
  - djtango 3y ago
    I heard that in Japan they will almost never fire someone, for various reasons. So when it's time to go there are stories of peoples desk being moved to the cupboard for example.
    - taftster 3y ago
      Or the added requirement to file additional TPM reports, possibly.
- BetaDeltaAlpha 3y ago
  Are people entitled to severance in the USA? I thought severance packages generally come with some considerations about indemnifying the company and such. Its a deal, not an entitlement. Forcing an employee to resign is a "Constructive Dismissal" and there's plenty of case law around it.
  - ITB 3y ago
    No. There’s mandatory unemployment insurance/tax companies pay that will float employees terminated without cause for a little time, depending on the state. But it’s not high. Large companies tend to give decent exit packages though.
- bluefirebrand 3y ago
  Depends entirely on you local labour laws and the contract you have signed with the company. If your local labour laws require compensation in cases of Constructive Dismissal, then you are entitled to some kind of severance package. If not, then it's possible your employment contract will have a clause for "in case of constructive dismissal we will pay X weeks based on employment length" or something. Maybe not likely, but certainly possible.
  - junofan 3y ago
    In the US it’s called constructive discharge. Good luck convincing a judge that asking a $400k/yr employee to show up to the office is so unreasonable that you were forced to quit.
- ActorNightly 3y ago
  They fire you, with a very valid reason of not being in the office, which from a legal perspective is very hard to argue against on the employee side.
  - dolni 3y ago
    Is it very valid if they hired you as a remote employee to start with?
  - FireBeyond 3y ago
    At least in Washington state, that's a maybe. RCW 50.20.050 (https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=50.20.050 https://app.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=50.20.050) says you can even quit and get unemployment if among several other items: > (vii) The claimant's worksite changed, such change caused a material increase in distance or difficulty of travel, and, after the change, the commute was greater than is customary for workers in the claimant's job classification and labor market;
toomuchtodo 3y ago
> The real reason for RTO is of course tax benefits that Amazon gets from local/state governments only if there are buts in seats in the office buildings (since people coming into the office means they are in the area which means that they spend money in local restaurants/shops, e.t.c) Are these tax breaks enumerated and tracked somewhere? What departments would be appropriate to receive FOIA requests on the matter?
- pixl97 3y ago
  Honestly a lot of these tax breaks are for local taxes so other than the county/city they are in, other than the local paper and the county courthouse I'm not sure if they have to be anywhere else.
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    I will have a database built. Thank you!
    - Serenacula 3y ago
      I understand the source of your name, I think.
      - toomuchtodo 3y ago
        Yep!
  - susiecambria 3y ago
    The information may also show up in tax expenditure reports. And/or in legislation.
JambalayaJim 3y ago
Why is it so unbelievable that execs simply believe RTO is beneficial for their business?

remremz 3y ago

https://archive.is/nyGOK https://archive.is/nyGOK

Reubend 3y ago

Can you share some examples of tax benefits they got? I'm imagining that the cost of keeping a office open far exceeds the tax benefits they would receive in return, and I doubt that local governments really track the frequency of how often workers are going into the office. Probably, having people attend the office "on paper" but with a low mandated frequency like 1 day a week would be enough to legally satisfy whichever agreements they made.