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Well, then you completely misunderstanding things. It's not about joining, not at all. Actually what they ask for changes things for all employees of an industr
by holgerschurig 3y ago
Well, then you completely misunderstanding things. It's not about joining, not at all. Actually what they ask for changes things for all employees of an industry (e.g. cars, or generally metal), not just for unionized workers.
So let me explain on this, as european union culture is VERY different from US union culture.
In Europe a lot of countries have a system of "Tarifvertrag" ("tarrif contract", but really "collective agreement"). In such contracts the workers union of a section (e.g. metal) do a contract with the business union of the employers. They settle then down to "give 28 days of holidays and x EUR per month to each" ... and then they won't strike for some time, e.g. 2 years. After this, they negotiate anew.
The special thing about this "Tarifvertrag" is now that EVERYBODY benefits from them, union member or not! In Sweden, for example, such general tariffs apply to 90% of the employees. So you can see how normal it's seen there. Anything that fights against this normality is thus seen not favorably (in Denmark it's 80% of all employees, in Germany it's much less, just 51% --- but still way more than in the US).
Now, Tesla Sweden says that they don't won't to follow such a model. The collective agreement is to them null and void. It seems that Elon Musky is, as many US brainwashed business people, strictly anti-union. Whatever comes from unions is surely coming right from hell :-) They have NEVER learned that with good unions you can have "peace at work", or more motivated people. The effect of this is visible, e.g. when you look at efficiency of e.g. german workers compared to their US counterparts. And this despite --- due to unions --- e.g. german cashiers can sit while checking people out. Horrors to US employee ... but effectively better for the people. So, in my view, US business people never learned how to use unions to their advantage --- which clearly is possible!
Now, with Musky's staunch "we ignore unions" stance, some reaction had to happen. Actually it was an escalation:
* in October 130 Tesla employees in various service stations went to strike
* in November 470 employees did strike
* now late December workers from other swedish unions said "We don't load/unload for Tesla in Sweden"
* and now, in early December, Danish and and Norwegian workers joined as well
Currently 12 different unions joined the "make Tesla think a bit more european" strike.
- ExoticPearTree 3y ago> The effect of this is visible, e.g. when you look at efficiency of e.g. german workers compared to their US counterparts. Can you please then explain to me how ~ 332mm people in the US are more productive than ~448mm people in the EU by almost 5 trillion dollars if the Americans are less efficient?
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- verzali 3y agoIt's because Europe has a higher proportion of retired people, and European workers get more holidays, better pensions and better unemployment benefits. When you work out the productivity per hour worked, Europe comes out ahead: https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2023/10/04/productivity-has-grown-faster-in-western-europe-than-in-america https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2023/10/04/producti...
- capableweb 3y agoWhat exactly you measure when you measure "amount of people X by almost X trillion dollars"? How did you manage to arrive at a number that supposedly means productivity of individual employees?
- ExoticPearTree 3y agoI compared the whole of the EU with the whole of the US in terms of people and GDP and it the numbers say the US is performing better than the EU with a third less people. I'm measuring the success of the US economic model with the EU economic model and the US one is winning by a lot.
- capableweb 3y agoSo you mean that GDP is a measurement of the productivity of employees? And you're measuring "success" of a economic model just based on how it increases GDP? What about lowly things like "life expectancy" or other things related to, you know, actual human lives? I knew USAians were "corporate and financials"-horny but this takes it to a whole other level.
- Hikikomori 3y agoNumber go up, all that matters.
- stiray 3y ago
- nabla9 3y agoYou are trying to explain the difference between sectoral collective bargaining and enterprise bargaining. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sectoral_collective_bargaining https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sectoral_collective_bargaining https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enterprise_bargaining_agreement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enterprise_bargaining_agreemen...
- C0mm0nS3ns3 3y agoTo me this sounds weird. I'm from Eastern Europe, no strong unions there by the way so it must be a West/North Europe kind of thing. I understand unions fighting for people who joined a union. But if I purposefully don't join a union cause I don't believe unions are good for the industry (I don't, but this is a hypothetical) why does the union have the power to create a "collective agreement" that affects me? Who gave them that right? I definitely didn't. Actually because of unions in Germany (where I currently work) it's really really hard to get a raise even if you're a top performer. Say I am 2x faster than anyone in my factory. I cannot go to my employer and ask for a raise. They will say: "Well, this is already discussed with unions. You're in the company for X years, this is your salary range. Work extra hours if you want more money". So all I can do is not work 2x as fast as everyone... waste time, and do extra hours so I can earn more. Waste of time. Without an union I could have negotiated my own salary based on my own merits and earn the same money I earn with the extra time in normal time cause I am efficient. So unions are not some holy grail. They come with drawbacks. And I find it wrong that a union I am purposefully not part of decides my salary. That makes no sense to me.
- InCityDreams 3y agoLet's say the union mandates 2 breaks a day$ unpaid lunch and max 6 day-consecutive work weeks. But not you.
- bogantech 3y agoWhat the unions really mandate: a pay increase that might match inflation if you're lucky.
- C0mm0nS3ns3 3y agoThat's fine. I can negotiate my own breaks and days of work. Maybe I need 1 break and I want to work the full week cause I need the money. If I want what the union is offering, I can always join the union, then I get the union "package". But if I don't, then leave me alone. I am a grown human, I can negotiate my own package.
- njarboe 3y agoThanks for this info. This is the sort of response I was hoping for as the media reports don't talk about the undying situation. And it's Musk not Musky. ;)