4 ms·

I get that proper unions are pretty baffling from a US perspective, where people don't mind having thousands peeing in bottles at work at Amazon as long as they

I get that proper unions are pretty baffling from a US perspective, where people don't mind having thousands peeing in bottles at work at Amazon as long as they get the spoon they ordered the next day. Us Scandinavians on the other hand find it pretty baffling that someone would just roll over to a megalomaniac who clearly states he would like to destroy what makes our countries great, our unions and working conditions.

yreg 3y ago
I'm a European working in a country with strong labour laws. But I wouldn't want a specific union to have a monopoly over my entire country and in case I don't want them to they shouldn't meddle with my work. And to be honest I believe that the state postal workers should have absolutely no say on whether someone gets their mail delivered.
- aaomidi 3y ago
  I mean, you’re wrong because the only way to implement what you’re suggesting is policing unions. The whole point of the union system is to be a separate pillar of power to the state to keep it in check.
  - yreg 3y ago
    >you’re wrong because the only way to implement what you’re suggesting I'm not suggesting anything.
- kwhitefoot 3y ago
  > state postal workers Actually they are no longer state postal workers. PostNord is owned by the Swedish and Danish states but it is not a part of the state as post offices used to be, it's no longer the Royal Mail.
  - yreg 3y ago
    I don't understand the difference. When a company is 100% state-owned and state-run then it is a public institution. The special thing here is that Sweden and Denmark share it.
    - kristofferR 3y ago
      It's not state-run though, it's a normal private company, just one where the governments own all the shares. They are still profit driven, like most state-owned companies in Scandinavia.
      - grotorea 3y ago
        And if there is public protest about delivery prices increasing the government won't order the board to stop it and pretend to forget profitability?
        kwhitefoot 3y ago
        Most likely not. The Scandinavian countries are capitalist democracies not dictatorships. Of course if it gets out of hand then the state will take action but anything beyond what any owner of a company could do would invite challenges in the courts. What governments have done here is to deregulate the postal services to a fairly large degree so that there is genuine competition at least for parcels. I can send parcels using three different services here in Norway: Posten (the former royal mail, now a state owned company), Helthjem a company owned by a bi online trading site and media company (a bit like eBay), and the now infamous Swedish-Danish PostNord. If one of them puts up the prices the others will just get more business. The liberalisation of postal services is also required by an EU directive.
        yreg 3y ago
        > The Scandinavian countries are capitalist democracies not dictatorships. Appointing a new CEO of a state-owned company and telling him what to do is hardly a 'dictatorship'. Maybe if it was a public broadcaster and the government made editorial decisions. My country also has a national Post Office which is a joint stock company and the state 'only' owns all of the shares. It is still definitely a public institution.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
ExoticPearTree 3y ago
I think you do not understand the basic fact that the people peeing in bottles are not working there against their will. As bad as it may be or sound, people choose to voluntarily work there. But sure, go fight your fight with the megalomaniac...
- archagon 3y ago
  For the most part, nobody is working anywhere against their will. Does that mean unions are pointless?
  - ExoticPearTree 3y ago
    Yes. I dislike the idea of unions with all my heart. I don't understand why a competent person needs to be a member of a union.
    - Kim_Bruning 3y ago
      It's a bargaining power thing. A group of individuals (like a company) has more bargaining power than an single individual. You can balance this out by eg. forming a second group of individuals who also collectively have more bargaining power (a union). Now don't try to tell me that bargaining power isn't a thing. With more bargaining power you can often get better deals! Note that Unions work very differently across different parts of the world. So your local union might be very different from ones that I've experienced.
      - ExoticPearTree 3y ago
        > Note that Unions work very differently across different parts of the world. So your local union might be very different from ones that I've experienced. You are right on this one. My experience with unions is that they want people to have a job even if that job is more efficiently done by a machine or to get salary increases even if the company is doing poorly because of outside market factors (like not enough sales due to poor economy and so on). And while the goal might be ideal, the reality is quite different.

yreg 3y ago

I'm a European working in a country with strong labour laws. But I wouldn't want a specific union to have a monopoly over my entire country and in case I don't want them to they shouldn't meddle with my work. And to be honest I believe that the state postal workers should have absolutely no say on whether someone gets their mail delivered.

aaomidi 3y ago
I mean, you’re wrong because the only way to implement what you’re suggesting is policing unions. The whole point of the union system is to be a separate pillar of power to the state to keep it in check.
- yreg 3y ago
  >you’re wrong because the only way to implement what you’re suggesting I'm not suggesting anything.
kwhitefoot 3y ago
> state postal workers Actually they are no longer state postal workers. PostNord is owned by the Swedish and Danish states but it is not a part of the state as post offices used to be, it's no longer the Royal Mail.
- yreg 3y ago
  I don't understand the difference. When a company is 100% state-owned and state-run then it is a public institution. The special thing here is that Sweden and Denmark share it.
  - kristofferR 3y ago
    It's not state-run though, it's a normal private company, just one where the governments own all the shares. They are still profit driven, like most state-owned companies in Scandinavia.
    - grotorea 3y ago
      And if there is public protest about delivery prices increasing the government won't order the board to stop it and pretend to forget profitability?
      - kwhitefoot 3y ago
        Most likely not. The Scandinavian countries are capitalist democracies not dictatorships. Of course if it gets out of hand then the state will take action but anything beyond what any owner of a company could do would invite challenges in the courts. What governments have done here is to deregulate the postal services to a fairly large degree so that there is genuine competition at least for parcels. I can send parcels using three different services here in Norway: Posten (the former royal mail, now a state owned company), Helthjem a company owned by a bi online trading site and media company (a bit like eBay), and the now infamous Swedish-Danish PostNord. If one of them puts up the prices the others will just get more business. The liberalisation of postal services is also required by an EU directive.
        yreg 3y ago
        > The Scandinavian countries are capitalist democracies not dictatorships. Appointing a new CEO of a state-owned company and telling him what to do is hardly a 'dictatorship'. Maybe if it was a public broadcaster and the government made editorial decisions. My country also has a national Post Office which is a joint stock company and the state 'only' owns all of the shares. It is still definitely a public institution.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

ExoticPearTree 3y ago

I think you do not understand the basic fact that the people peeing in bottles are not working there against their will. As bad as it may be or sound, people choose to voluntarily work there. But sure, go fight your fight with the megalomaniac...

archagon 3y ago
For the most part, nobody is working anywhere against their will. Does that mean unions are pointless?
- ExoticPearTree 3y ago
  Yes. I dislike the idea of unions with all my heart. I don't understand why a competent person needs to be a member of a union.
  - Kim_Bruning 3y ago
    It's a bargaining power thing. A group of individuals (like a company) has more bargaining power than an single individual. You can balance this out by eg. forming a second group of individuals who also collectively have more bargaining power (a union). Now don't try to tell me that bargaining power isn't a thing. With more bargaining power you can often get better deals! Note that Unions work very differently across different parts of the world. So your local union might be very different from ones that I've experienced.
    - ExoticPearTree 3y ago
      > Note that Unions work very differently across different parts of the world. So your local union might be very different from ones that I've experienced. You are right on this one. My experience with unions is that they want people to have a job even if that job is more efficiently done by a machine or to get salary increases even if the company is doing poorly because of outside market factors (like not enough sales due to poor economy and so on). And while the goal might be ideal, the reality is quite different.