5 ms·

From what I understand Tesla employees in Sweden do not want to join a/the union. The IF Metall union I believe. So these actions are unions trying to force peo

From what I understand Tesla employees in Sweden do not want to join a/the union. The IF Metall union I believe. So these actions are unions trying to force people to do something they don't want to do. If people are happy working for Tesla without a union (stock options, flexible work rules, etc.) from my (American) perspective, why should they be forced to create an additional administrative system you would have to deal with. Are all people represented by unions in Sweden? If so, this situation makes more sense to me. It could be seen more as preserving the culture of Sweden than just an act against one company. If not, why are the unions not ganging up on other companies?

holgerschurig 3y ago
Well, then you completely misunderstanding things. It's not about joining, not at all. Actually what they ask for changes things for all employees of an industry (e.g. cars, or generally metal), not just for unionized workers. So let me explain on this, as european union culture is VERY different from US union culture. In Europe a lot of countries have a system of "Tarifvertrag" ("tarrif contract", but really "collective agreement"). In such contracts the workers union of a section (e.g. metal) do a contract with the business union of the employers. They settle then down to "give 28 days of holidays and x EUR per month to each" ... and then they won't strike for some time, e.g. 2 years. After this, they negotiate anew. The special thing about this "Tarifvertrag" is now that EVERYBODY benefits from them, union member or not! In Sweden, for example, such general tariffs apply to 90% of the employees. So you can see how normal it's seen there. Anything that fights against this normality is thus seen not favorably (in Denmark it's 80% of all employees, in Germany it's much less, just 51% --- but still way more than in the US). Now, Tesla Sweden says that they don't won't to follow such a model. The collective agreement is to them null and void. It seems that Elon Musky is, as many US brainwashed business people, strictly anti-union. Whatever comes from unions is surely coming right from hell :-) They have NEVER learned that with good unions you can have "peace at work", or more motivated people. The effect of this is visible, e.g. when you look at efficiency of e.g. german workers compared to their US counterparts. And this despite --- due to unions --- e.g. german cashiers can sit while checking people out. Horrors to US employee ... but effectively better for the people. So, in my view, US business people never learned how to use unions to their advantage --- which clearly is possible! Now, with Musky's staunch "we ignore unions" stance, some reaction had to happen. Actually it was an escalation: * in October 130 Tesla employees in various service stations went to strike * in November 470 employees did strike * now late December workers from other swedish unions said "We don't load/unload for Tesla in Sweden" * and now, in early December, Danish and and Norwegian workers joined as well Currently 12 different unions joined the "make Tesla think a bit more european" strike.
- ExoticPearTree 3y ago
  > The effect of this is visible, e.g. when you look at efficiency of e.g. german workers compared to their US counterparts. Can you please then explain to me how ~ 332mm people in the US are more productive than ~448mm people in the EU by almost 5 trillion dollars if the Americans are less efficient?
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - verzali 3y ago
    It's because Europe has a higher proportion of retired people, and European workers get more holidays, better pensions and better unemployment benefits. When you work out the productivity per hour worked, Europe comes out ahead: https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2023/10/04/productivity-has-grown-faster-in-western-europe-than-in-america https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2023/10/04/producti...
  - capableweb 3y ago
    What exactly you measure when you measure "amount of people X by almost X trillion dollars"? How did you manage to arrive at a number that supposedly means productivity of individual employees?
    - ExoticPearTree 3y ago
      I compared the whole of the EU with the whole of the US in terms of people and GDP and it the numbers say the US is performing better than the EU with a third less people. I'm measuring the success of the US economic model with the EU economic model and the US one is winning by a lot.
      - capableweb 3y ago
        So you mean that GDP is a measurement of the productivity of employees? And you're measuring "success" of a economic model just based on how it increases GDP? What about lowly things like "life expectancy" or other things related to, you know, actual human lives? I knew USAians were "corporate and financials"-horny but this takes it to a whole other level.
larsnystrom 3y ago
Swede here: This has almost nothing to do with Tesla workers in Sweden. They are free to join or not join a union, irrespective if Tesla signs a collective agreement. Wikipedia says that 87% of swedish employees work at workplaces which have collective agreements. So it's not everyone, but pretty much.

holgerschurig 3y ago

Well, then you completely misunderstanding things. It's not about joining, not at all. Actually what they ask for changes things for all employees of an industry (e.g. cars, or generally metal), not just for unionized workers. So let me explain on this, as european union culture is VERY different from US union culture. In Europe a lot of countries have a system of "Tarifvertrag" ("tarrif contract", but really "collective agreement"). In such contracts the workers union of a section (e.g. metal) do a contract with the business union of the employers. They settle then down to "give 28 days of holidays and x EUR per month to each" ... and then they won't strike for some time, e.g. 2 years. After this, they negotiate anew. The special thing about this "Tarifvertrag" is now that EVERYBODY benefits from them, union member or not! In Sweden, for example, such general tariffs apply to 90% of the employees. So you can see how normal it's seen there. Anything that fights against this normality is thus seen not favorably (in Denmark it's 80% of all employees, in Germany it's much less, just 51% --- but still way more than in the US). Now, Tesla Sweden says that they don't won't to follow such a model. The collective agreement is to them null and void. It seems that Elon Musky is, as many US brainwashed business people, strictly anti-union. Whatever comes from unions is surely coming right from hell :-) They have NEVER learned that with good unions you can have "peace at work", or more motivated people. The effect of this is visible, e.g. when you look at efficiency of e.g. german workers compared to their US counterparts. And this despite --- due to unions --- e.g. german cashiers can sit while checking people out. Horrors to US employee ... but effectively better for the people. So, in my view, US business people never learned how to use unions to their advantage --- which clearly is possible! Now, with Musky's staunch "we ignore unions" stance, some reaction had to happen. Actually it was an escalation: * in October 130 Tesla employees in various service stations went to strike * in November 470 employees did strike * now late December workers from other swedish unions said "We don't load/unload for Tesla in Sweden" * and now, in early December, Danish and and Norwegian workers joined as well Currently 12 different unions joined the "make Tesla think a bit more european" strike.

ExoticPearTree 3y ago
> The effect of this is visible, e.g. when you look at efficiency of e.g. german workers compared to their US counterparts. Can you please then explain to me how ~ 332mm people in the US are more productive than ~448mm people in the EU by almost 5 trillion dollars if the Americans are less efficient?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- verzali 3y ago
  It's because Europe has a higher proportion of retired people, and European workers get more holidays, better pensions and better unemployment benefits. When you work out the productivity per hour worked, Europe comes out ahead: https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2023/10/04/productivity-has-grown-faster-in-western-europe-than-in-america https://www.economist.com/graphic-detail/2023/10/04/producti...
- capableweb 3y ago
  What exactly you measure when you measure "amount of people X by almost X trillion dollars"? How did you manage to arrive at a number that supposedly means productivity of individual employees?
  - ExoticPearTree 3y ago
    I compared the whole of the EU with the whole of the US in terms of people and GDP and it the numbers say the US is performing better than the EU with a third less people. I'm measuring the success of the US economic model with the EU economic model and the US one is winning by a lot.
    - capableweb 3y ago
      So you mean that GDP is a measurement of the productivity of employees? And you're measuring "success" of a economic model just based on how it increases GDP? What about lowly things like "life expectancy" or other things related to, you know, actual human lives? I knew USAians were "corporate and financials"-horny but this takes it to a whole other level.

larsnystrom 3y ago

Swede here: This has almost nothing to do with Tesla workers in Sweden. They are free to join or not join a union, irrespective if Tesla signs a collective agreement. Wikipedia says that 87% of swedish employees work at workplaces which have collective agreements. So it's not everyone, but pretty much.