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That is not true, eastern Europe has strong labour laws. World leading companies were moving to eastern Europe because it was cheap. Both land and labour. In

That is not true, eastern Europe has strong labour laws. World leading companies were moving to eastern Europe because it was cheap. Both land and labour. In some cases comparable to china. It is an outsourcing hub, way to cut costs. You get same skill (or even more) in Poland as you can get in Germany, but for half price and slightly less bureaucracy.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
>That is not true, eastern Europe has strong labour laws. Maybe compared to the US, but not compared to France, Germany or Nordics. >World leading companies were moving to eastern Europe because it was cheap. Both land and labour. The "cheap-ness" of labor is also related on the availability and strength of unions, lack of bureaucracy and red tape, taxes, worker's rights and social benefits, not just on their local supply/demand and purchasing power. Having had strong unions in EE that could strike on a whim and demand better conditions, wouldn't have made it very attractive to foreign investors despite the lower wages. In fact, the constant strikes in the early to mid '90's is what kept foreign investors away from Romania causing it to fall behind most of its post comunist neighbors at the time. Foreign investors are also looking for stability, not just cheap labor.
- ponector 3y ago
  In Poland it is extremely hard to fire an individual with regular employment agreement. Lots of rules about overtime, work schedule, total working hours, vacations, sick leaves, payment, notice period in case of mass layoff. Labour law is strong. But people are cheap - that's what attractive for international employers. Minimum wage, costs of living in Germany is higher than in Poland. What is a minimal wage in Germany is a decent wage for factory worker in Poland.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    Poland != all of Eastern Europe. Yes, it's the same in Romania, on paper, there are loads of rules and regulations to protect the workers, but those rules are broken all the time by employers, especially in low paying jobs, because low paid employees don't have the time and money to take those employers to court, and there are next to no unions. And the labor laws are still weaker than what workers in for example France or Netherlands would get for the same job at the same company. Then there's environmental regulations which are laughable in Romania compared to what they are in Germany. To open a dirty tire factory or a mine in Germany you'd get protests up your ass meaning you'd never start building, while in Romania everything gets rubberstamped quickly if you grease the right wheels, meaning the cost of doing business is much lower regardless of wages, as the environmental costs also factor in the total cost of doing business somewhere, not just wages.
    - ponector 3y ago
      Not all, but a huge beneficiary of outsourcing factories and services. Also in Poland labour law is covering mainly people on regular employment agreement. There are ways to get around and screw employees, but western factories and outsorcing vendors(like TCS, Capgemini) are not doing business that way.
ExoticPearTree 3y ago
> That is not true, eastern Europe has strong labour laws. On paper. In practice workers figure out pretty fast that if that big employes moves shop they're screwed for life. I don't know much about Poland, but somehow I don't think unions in Poland will be "no, we don't want Mercedes to open a factory here and tell us what to do" :)

FirmwareBurner 3y ago

>That is not true, eastern Europe has strong labour laws. Maybe compared to the US, but not compared to France, Germany or Nordics. >World leading companies were moving to eastern Europe because it was cheap. Both land and labour. The "cheap-ness" of labor is also related on the availability and strength of unions, lack of bureaucracy and red tape, taxes, worker's rights and social benefits, not just on their local supply/demand and purchasing power. Having had strong unions in EE that could strike on a whim and demand better conditions, wouldn't have made it very attractive to foreign investors despite the lower wages. In fact, the constant strikes in the early to mid '90's is what kept foreign investors away from Romania causing it to fall behind most of its post comunist neighbors at the time. Foreign investors are also looking for stability, not just cheap labor.

ponector 3y ago
In Poland it is extremely hard to fire an individual with regular employment agreement. Lots of rules about overtime, work schedule, total working hours, vacations, sick leaves, payment, notice period in case of mass layoff. Labour law is strong. But people are cheap - that's what attractive for international employers. Minimum wage, costs of living in Germany is higher than in Poland. What is a minimal wage in Germany is a decent wage for factory worker in Poland.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  Poland != all of Eastern Europe. Yes, it's the same in Romania, on paper, there are loads of rules and regulations to protect the workers, but those rules are broken all the time by employers, especially in low paying jobs, because low paid employees don't have the time and money to take those employers to court, and there are next to no unions. And the labor laws are still weaker than what workers in for example France or Netherlands would get for the same job at the same company. Then there's environmental regulations which are laughable in Romania compared to what they are in Germany. To open a dirty tire factory or a mine in Germany you'd get protests up your ass meaning you'd never start building, while in Romania everything gets rubberstamped quickly if you grease the right wheels, meaning the cost of doing business is much lower regardless of wages, as the environmental costs also factor in the total cost of doing business somewhere, not just wages.
  - ponector 3y ago
    Not all, but a huge beneficiary of outsourcing factories and services. Also in Poland labour law is covering mainly people on regular employment agreement. There are ways to get around and screw employees, but western factories and outsorcing vendors(like TCS, Capgemini) are not doing business that way.

ExoticPearTree 3y ago

> That is not true, eastern Europe has strong labour laws. On paper. In practice workers figure out pretty fast that if that big employes moves shop they're screwed for life. I don't know much about Poland, but somehow I don't think unions in Poland will be "no, we don't want Mercedes to open a factory here and tell us what to do" :)