5 ms·

Tesla (VP Vehicle Engineering) says Cybertruck likely to not make it to Europe

27 points by BtM909 3y ago

BtM909 3y ago
Quote: Lars Moravy boils it down to two other things: “One, the truck market in the US is huge and two, European regulations call for a 3.2mm external radius on external projections. Unfortunately, it's impossible to make a 3.2mm radius on a 1.4mm sheet of stainless steel.”
- vincnetas 3y ago
  "3.2mm external radius on external projections" does this translates to "you have to have rounded corners" in plain language?
  - benmoose 3y ago
    Yep
    - croes 3y ago
      So Lars Moravy's second quote is wrong?
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    Exactly. You don't want pedestrians and cyclists being impaled or decapitated on the sharp and pointy edges of your car in case of accidents. This isn't Mad Max or a zombie apocalypse to warrant such design choices on the road. I'm surprised that it's legal in the US.
    - BizarreByte 3y ago
      > I'm surprised that it's legal in the US. It's okay, the Cybertruck is for the wealthy and as we all know they are more important. The poors who it will kill can barely be considered people so who cares? Even better, the truck may on its on volition decide to take some of the poors out without the driver's input.
    - ModernMech 3y ago
      It seems to me like someone is designing these for the war zone in their head. This all started with the bio-attack mode on the ModelX. Now we have bullet proof windows, armor plating, and sharp edges. What’s next a retractable Gatling gun? Will people bat an eye?
      - malermeister 3y ago
        I wouldn't be surprised if Elon designed these as a getaway vehicle should the poors decide to rise up. Need a Mad Max car to take you to your escape rocket - now all of his endeavors make sense!
      - meepmorp 3y ago
        > What’s next a retractable Gatling gun? If you need a high rate of fire and are space/weight/power constrained, you might be better served by using a Gast gun design, like the GSh-23. You don't get to the same max rate of fire, but you also don't need to spin up the barrels or use an external power source to drive the gun.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- 34679 3y ago
  It's perfectly possible if you bend it.
- oxfordmale 3y ago
  It boils down to pedestrian safety, not the external radius. The high bonnet and bumper mean that a pedestrian would likely be hit by the ultra-hard stainless steel structure of the front bumper and bodywork, where the grille would traditionally be.
  - netsharc 3y ago
    I think the whole thing is a kindergartner being rich enough to design his fantasy car, but I wonder if anyone at Tesla is considering a EU version with different materials and more rounded edges. Bugattis have to have added bumpers to make them legal in the US[1], although they're easily removable by the owner (at their own risk of fines).. it'd be funny if European Teslas had ugly padding around the edges/corners.. or maybe not funny, as I live there I'd loathe to see these ugly things. 1 https://www.carthrottle.com/news/bugatti-chirons-us-spec-bumper-moderately-upsetting https://www.carthrottle.com/news/bugatti-chirons-us-spec-bum...
- josefresco 3y ago
  Not only is it a danger to pedestrians "brushing" up against its sharp edges: "Musk implied that in a crash with another vehicle, the Cybertruck—which weighs 6,603–6,843 lbs (2,995–3,104 kg)—will destroy the other vehicle." *https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/11/the-tesla-cybertruck-finally-goes-on-sale-starting-at-60990/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/11/the-tesla-cybertruck-fi...
  - cactusplant7374 3y ago
    What would happen if two Cybertrucks crashed in a head on collision?
  - gregshap 3y ago
    Sure but thats a feature of all large trucks he's just marketing more aggressively.
  - Ekaros 3y ago
    It is fun to think that it is very much closing to gross weight where your normal driving license is not enough. As that limit is 3500kg. Meaning that if you have 6 people in it you would be over the limit. And this does not include any cargo...
  - LeifCarrotson 3y ago
    That's not that different from my Toyota Sequoia at ~5950 lbs curb weight (I was over 6800 lbs loaded with family, dog, luggage, and tools last time I went over a scale to weigh my 7400 lbs travel trailer). I drive extremely carefully while using that stupidly large vehicle. Please don't honk at me when I don't jump out into small gaps at an intersection, cut me off when I'm leaving a large gap in front of me, or dart around me when I'm not accelerating like it's a drag race - I'm just trying not to hurt anyone. My Dad was driving his 6800 lbs Super Duty a few years ago, pulling a trailer with a friend's antique car (a Buick about as long and as heavy as a barge) when a little 2500 lbs Honda Fit pulled out of a driveway to turn left without looking. The truck needed the bumper, radiator, and some trim replaced, the Honda was totaled. He applied the brakes fully on all 8 wheels but basically stayed in the lane unperturbed, the Honda was spun into the ditch and the whole left rear was crushed. If someone had been sitting in the back left seat they'd have been dead. Miraculously, no one was killed. That arms race is why my wife refuses to downsize. We could get a smaller, lighter, newer travel trailer, and pull it with a Honda Odyssey. But she wants to be as tall as the pickups and as heavy as anything else so she doesn't get killed by some idiot.
- danpalmer 3y ago
  > Unfortunately, it's impossible to make a 3.2mm radius on a 1.4mm sheet of stainless steel Cars in Europe are not made from >3.2mm thick steel plating, and yet they manage it. I don't know if this comment was just ignorance or an attempt at gaslighting, but it doesn't stand up to any scrutiny.
  - creshal 3y ago
    Cybertruck uses a different construction technique, one that's been around for decades yet was never adopted by any other car maker. This is probably one of the reasons why.
  - digitalPhonix 3y ago
    You have it backwards - you want something significantly thinner than 3.2mm steel to get a bend radius of 3.2mm. That’s why most cars don’t use sheet steel and have exteriors made with materials that are easier to form
- nativeit 3y ago
  It’s trivially possible. Is Lars Moravy dumber than most, or do they just think everyone else is?
- rich_sasha 3y ago
  That's intriguing - you can't make thin sheet of metal rounded? I know precisely nothing about metal design, but why can't you bend it? Steel pipes can be rounded and be made of thin-ish metal.
  - digitalPhonix 3y ago
    Not by stamping the steel which is what they’re doing
pavlov 3y ago
At the Cybertruck launch event, Musk suggested that it’s designed to destroy the other vehicle in a crash situation. A car like that probably would have a hard time getting certified in Europe.
- loceng 3y ago
  Did he say designed to destroy or would destroy the other vehicle? Saying designed to destroy denotes intent.
  - josefresco 3y ago
    Source: https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/11/the-tesla-cybertruck-finally-goes-on-sale-starting-at-60990/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/11/the-tesla-cybertruck-fi... According to the article he "implied". Another source and direct quote: "If you’re ever in an argument with another car, you will win,” Musk told his fans at the delivery event in its Texas factory in Austin. “Here at Tesla we have the finest in apocalypse technology." *https://fortune.com/2023/12/01/cybertruck-elon-musk-tesla-delivery-event-prices-specs/ https://fortune.com/2023/12/01/cybertruck-elon-musk-tesla-de...
    - nolongerthere 3y ago
      yea, unfortunately ars doesn't have the best track record with musk related news
      - josefresco 3y ago
        Ok, maybe a direct quote from another source will suffice? “If you’re ever in an argument with another car, you will win,” Musk told his fans at the delivery event in its Texas factory in Austin. “Here at Tesla we have the finest in apocalypse technology.” *https://fortune.com/2023/12/01/cybertruck-elon-musk-tesla-delivery-event-prices-specs/ https://fortune.com/2023/12/01/cybertruck-elon-musk-tesla-de...
    - redserk 3y ago
kubb 3y ago
Cool, we won’t be seeing these things on the streets.
LorenDB 3y ago
Why do articles like this call the Cybertruck a car? It's obviously designed and branded as a truck, albeit a unique-looking one.
- wasmitnetzen 3y ago
  Some trucks are cars, this one included.
- owie829 3y ago
  Possibly due to the unibody vs body-on-frame construction of the vehicle.
ogig 3y ago
Good, after seen Marques' review on youtube last thing I would want is to be involved in a crash with a cybertruck. Those angles and steel plates will cause gruesome consequences for everyone involved in such an accident. Happy to see our regulation working.
- renegade-otter 3y ago
  This one? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxOh12Uhg08 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxOh12Uhg08 "I just can't see the front of the car". Oh yeah, this will work out great. Elon designed it himself, didn't he?
  - geekifier 3y ago
    > "I just can't see the front of the car". > Oh yeah, this will work out great. It seems to me that the Cybertruck has less of a blind spot in front of the hood than F-150. The "not seeing the front" is actually hinting at this, it's below the field of vision. The hood angles down agressively vs. huge Large trucks/SUVs are infamous for poor pedestrian visibility right in front. Edit: this graphic (https://cdn.carbuzz.com/gallery-images/1600/1140000/800/1140891.jpg https://cdn.carbuzz.com/gallery-images/1600/1140000/800/1140...) comes to mind.
  - theturtletalks 3y ago
    The whole video is a gold mine for "asshole design." - No door handles, press a button and pull the metal railing to open the door - No rear-view mirror, use the console to see what's behind you - Your driving speed is no longer in front of the steering wheel, it's in the console - Your glove box doesn't have a manual latch, dig into settings to open the glove box - The gear shifter is in the console or above you Seems like Elon went full contrarian when designing the car.
    - dgrin91 3y ago
      Half this stuff has been standard tesla design for a while and are typically liked by Tesla drivers - - no door handles - driving speed on center console - glove box controlled by console - gear shift not in-between driver/passenger Contrarian I guess.... but not bad Also "no rear view mirror" - it was clearly stated in the video that is only for the production test model and real production models will have rear and side view mirrors.
janfoeh 3y ago
That is good news. Additionally, I would appreciate any kind of steps taken to make it unviable to drive any other US-style truck here as well.
- invalidusernam3 3y ago
  I absolutely agree. I live in Prague and a guy on my street owns a Dodge Ram (I think that's what it is, I'm not a car guy). It sticks out far into the street or occupies a large amount of the pavement when it's parked. It struggles to make turns on the narrower roads. I really wish we would ban the import of cars above a certain size, they're dangerous and inconvenient for everyone else in the city.
  - malermeister 3y ago
    If it sticks out onto the street or the pavement, can you call the non-emergency police number to get that guy a ticket?
Moldoteck 3y ago
That's pleasant news
mhh__ 3y ago
I quite like the way it looks - I hadn't considered the crash & pedestrian safety aspects: I'm not a massive fan of the nanny state but this is important. I live near some rural-ecomentalist type villages (UK) (aesthetics might be an issue, let's ignore that for now) where these things would actually be pretty popular - completely unnecessary but popular.
akmarinov 3y ago
Which is why it was really stupid to focus on this if your mission really is to accelerate migrating to green energy
- red-iron-pine 3y ago
  his mission is "fuck you pay me", and the green energy thing is just a way to raise capital from SV tech bros and rubes. that and maybe dying on Mars.
_jplc 3y ago
Another win for Europe
beardyw 3y ago
Would be limited in where it could go in the UK. In London I drive through narrow width restrictions, keeping large vehicles out, several times a day. You would need special maps.
bryanlarsen 3y ago
Getting hit by a Cybertruck as a pedestrian is likely considerably safer than being hit by an F-150, a Hummer or any other similarly sized truck or SUV. Pedestrian impact regulations should make the Cybertruck design illegal, as well any modern truck design. IMO, the laws should be written so that the height of the 1996 F-150 is legal and the 1997 F-150 should be illegal for non-commercial purposes in cities. 1: https://twitter.com/WholeMarsBlog/status/1731918392800510345/photo/1 https://twitter.com/WholeMarsBlog/status/1731918392800510345... 2: https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/vehicles-with-higher-more-vertical-front-ends-pose-greater-risk-to-pedestrians https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/vehicles-with-higher-more-v...
303uru 3y ago
It's a failure of US policy that this thing will be on the roads (this coming from a Model 3 owner). This angular, crumple-less, overly fast death machine has no place on public roads.

27 points by BtM909 3y ago

Quote: Lars Moravy boils it down to two other things: “One, the truck market in the US is huge and two, European regulations call for a 3.2mm external radius on external projections. Unfortunately, it's impossible to make a 3.2mm radius on a 1.4mm sheet of stainless steel.”

vincnetas 3y ago
"3.2mm external radius on external projections" does this translates to "you have to have rounded corners" in plain language?
- benmoose 3y ago
  Yep
  - croes 3y ago
    So Lars Moravy's second quote is wrong?
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  Exactly. You don't want pedestrians and cyclists being impaled or decapitated on the sharp and pointy edges of your car in case of accidents. This isn't Mad Max or a zombie apocalypse to warrant such design choices on the road. I'm surprised that it's legal in the US.
  - BizarreByte 3y ago
    > I'm surprised that it's legal in the US. It's okay, the Cybertruck is for the wealthy and as we all know they are more important. The poors who it will kill can barely be considered people so who cares? Even better, the truck may on its on volition decide to take some of the poors out without the driver's input.
  - ModernMech 3y ago
    It seems to me like someone is designing these for the war zone in their head. This all started with the bio-attack mode on the ModelX. Now we have bullet proof windows, armor plating, and sharp edges. What’s next a retractable Gatling gun? Will people bat an eye?
    - malermeister 3y ago
      I wouldn't be surprised if Elon designed these as a getaway vehicle should the poors decide to rise up. Need a Mad Max car to take you to your escape rocket - now all of his endeavors make sense!
    - meepmorp 3y ago
      > What’s next a retractable Gatling gun? If you need a high rate of fire and are space/weight/power constrained, you might be better served by using a Gast gun design, like the GSh-23. You don't get to the same max rate of fire, but you also don't need to spin up the barrels or use an external power source to drive the gun.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
34679 3y ago
It's perfectly possible if you bend it.
oxfordmale 3y ago
It boils down to pedestrian safety, not the external radius. The high bonnet and bumper mean that a pedestrian would likely be hit by the ultra-hard stainless steel structure of the front bumper and bodywork, where the grille would traditionally be.
- netsharc 3y ago
  I think the whole thing is a kindergartner being rich enough to design his fantasy car, but I wonder if anyone at Tesla is considering a EU version with different materials and more rounded edges. Bugattis have to have added bumpers to make them legal in the US[1], although they're easily removable by the owner (at their own risk of fines).. it'd be funny if European Teslas had ugly padding around the edges/corners.. or maybe not funny, as I live there I'd loathe to see these ugly things. 1 https://www.carthrottle.com/news/bugatti-chirons-us-spec-bumper-moderately-upsetting https://www.carthrottle.com/news/bugatti-chirons-us-spec-bum...
josefresco 3y ago
Not only is it a danger to pedestrians "brushing" up against its sharp edges: "Musk implied that in a crash with another vehicle, the Cybertruck—which weighs 6,603–6,843 lbs (2,995–3,104 kg)—will destroy the other vehicle." *https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/11/the-tesla-cybertruck-finally-goes-on-sale-starting-at-60990/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/11/the-tesla-cybertruck-fi...
- cactusplant7374 3y ago
  What would happen if two Cybertrucks crashed in a head on collision?
- gregshap 3y ago
  Sure but thats a feature of all large trucks he's just marketing more aggressively.
- Ekaros 3y ago
  It is fun to think that it is very much closing to gross weight where your normal driving license is not enough. As that limit is 3500kg. Meaning that if you have 6 people in it you would be over the limit. And this does not include any cargo...
- LeifCarrotson 3y ago
  That's not that different from my Toyota Sequoia at ~5950 lbs curb weight (I was over 6800 lbs loaded with family, dog, luggage, and tools last time I went over a scale to weigh my 7400 lbs travel trailer). I drive extremely carefully while using that stupidly large vehicle. Please don't honk at me when I don't jump out into small gaps at an intersection, cut me off when I'm leaving a large gap in front of me, or dart around me when I'm not accelerating like it's a drag race - I'm just trying not to hurt anyone. My Dad was driving his 6800 lbs Super Duty a few years ago, pulling a trailer with a friend's antique car (a Buick about as long and as heavy as a barge) when a little 2500 lbs Honda Fit pulled out of a driveway to turn left without looking. The truck needed the bumper, radiator, and some trim replaced, the Honda was totaled. He applied the brakes fully on all 8 wheels but basically stayed in the lane unperturbed, the Honda was spun into the ditch and the whole left rear was crushed. If someone had been sitting in the back left seat they'd have been dead. Miraculously, no one was killed. That arms race is why my wife refuses to downsize. We could get a smaller, lighter, newer travel trailer, and pull it with a Honda Odyssey. But she wants to be as tall as the pickups and as heavy as anything else so she doesn't get killed by some idiot.
danpalmer 3y ago
> Unfortunately, it's impossible to make a 3.2mm radius on a 1.4mm sheet of stainless steel Cars in Europe are not made from >3.2mm thick steel plating, and yet they manage it. I don't know if this comment was just ignorance or an attempt at gaslighting, but it doesn't stand up to any scrutiny.
- creshal 3y ago
  Cybertruck uses a different construction technique, one that's been around for decades yet was never adopted by any other car maker. This is probably one of the reasons why.
- digitalPhonix 3y ago
  You have it backwards - you want something significantly thinner than 3.2mm steel to get a bend radius of 3.2mm. That’s why most cars don’t use sheet steel and have exteriors made with materials that are easier to form
nativeit 3y ago
It’s trivially possible. Is Lars Moravy dumber than most, or do they just think everyone else is?
rich_sasha 3y ago
That's intriguing - you can't make thin sheet of metal rounded? I know precisely nothing about metal design, but why can't you bend it? Steel pipes can be rounded and be made of thin-ish metal.
- digitalPhonix 3y ago
  Not by stamping the steel which is what they’re doing

pavlov 3y ago

At the Cybertruck launch event, Musk suggested that it’s designed to destroy the other vehicle in a crash situation. A car like that probably would have a hard time getting certified in Europe.

loceng 3y ago
Did he say designed to destroy or would destroy the other vehicle? Saying designed to destroy denotes intent.
- josefresco 3y ago
  Source: https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/11/the-tesla-cybertruck-finally-goes-on-sale-starting-at-60990/ https://arstechnica.com/cars/2023/11/the-tesla-cybertruck-fi... According to the article he "implied". Another source and direct quote: "If you’re ever in an argument with another car, you will win,” Musk told his fans at the delivery event in its Texas factory in Austin. “Here at Tesla we have the finest in apocalypse technology." *https://fortune.com/2023/12/01/cybertruck-elon-musk-tesla-delivery-event-prices-specs/ https://fortune.com/2023/12/01/cybertruck-elon-musk-tesla-de...
  - nolongerthere 3y ago
    yea, unfortunately ars doesn't have the best track record with musk related news
    - josefresco 3y ago
      Ok, maybe a direct quote from another source will suffice? “If you’re ever in an argument with another car, you will win,” Musk told his fans at the delivery event in its Texas factory in Austin. “Here at Tesla we have the finest in apocalypse technology.” *https://fortune.com/2023/12/01/cybertruck-elon-musk-tesla-delivery-event-prices-specs/ https://fortune.com/2023/12/01/cybertruck-elon-musk-tesla-de...
  - redserk 3y ago

kubb 3y ago

Cool, we won’t be seeing these things on the streets.

LorenDB 3y ago

Why do articles like this call the Cybertruck a car? It's obviously designed and branded as a truck, albeit a unique-looking one.

wasmitnetzen 3y ago
Some trucks are cars, this one included.
owie829 3y ago
Possibly due to the unibody vs body-on-frame construction of the vehicle.

ogig 3y ago

Good, after seen Marques' review on youtube last thing I would want is to be involved in a crash with a cybertruck. Those angles and steel plates will cause gruesome consequences for everyone involved in such an accident. Happy to see our regulation working.

renegade-otter 3y ago
This one? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxOh12Uhg08 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxOh12Uhg08 "I just can't see the front of the car". Oh yeah, this will work out great. Elon designed it himself, didn't he?
- geekifier 3y ago
  > "I just can't see the front of the car". > Oh yeah, this will work out great. It seems to me that the Cybertruck has less of a blind spot in front of the hood than F-150. The "not seeing the front" is actually hinting at this, it's below the field of vision. The hood angles down agressively vs. huge Large trucks/SUVs are infamous for poor pedestrian visibility right in front. Edit: this graphic (https://cdn.carbuzz.com/gallery-images/1600/1140000/800/1140891.jpg https://cdn.carbuzz.com/gallery-images/1600/1140000/800/1140...) comes to mind.
- theturtletalks 3y ago
  The whole video is a gold mine for "asshole design." - No door handles, press a button and pull the metal railing to open the door - No rear-view mirror, use the console to see what's behind you - Your driving speed is no longer in front of the steering wheel, it's in the console - Your glove box doesn't have a manual latch, dig into settings to open the glove box - The gear shifter is in the console or above you Seems like Elon went full contrarian when designing the car.
  - dgrin91 3y ago
    Half this stuff has been standard tesla design for a while and are typically liked by Tesla drivers - - no door handles - driving speed on center console - glove box controlled by console - gear shift not in-between driver/passenger Contrarian I guess.... but not bad Also "no rear view mirror" - it was clearly stated in the video that is only for the production test model and real production models will have rear and side view mirrors.

janfoeh 3y ago

That is good news. Additionally, I would appreciate any kind of steps taken to make it unviable to drive any other US-style truck here as well.

invalidusernam3 3y ago
I absolutely agree. I live in Prague and a guy on my street owns a Dodge Ram (I think that's what it is, I'm not a car guy). It sticks out far into the street or occupies a large amount of the pavement when it's parked. It struggles to make turns on the narrower roads. I really wish we would ban the import of cars above a certain size, they're dangerous and inconvenient for everyone else in the city.
- malermeister 3y ago
  If it sticks out onto the street or the pavement, can you call the non-emergency police number to get that guy a ticket?

Moldoteck 3y ago

That's pleasant news

mhh__ 3y ago

I quite like the way it looks - I hadn't considered the crash & pedestrian safety aspects: I'm not a massive fan of the nanny state but this is important. I live near some rural-ecomentalist type villages (UK) (aesthetics might be an issue, let's ignore that for now) where these things would actually be pretty popular - completely unnecessary but popular.

akmarinov 3y ago

Which is why it was really stupid to focus on this if your mission really is to accelerate migrating to green energy

red-iron-pine 3y ago
his mission is "fuck you pay me", and the green energy thing is just a way to raise capital from SV tech bros and rubes. that and maybe dying on Mars.

_jplc 3y ago

Another win for Europe

beardyw 3y ago

Would be limited in where it could go in the UK. In London I drive through narrow width restrictions, keeping large vehicles out, several times a day. You would need special maps.

bryanlarsen 3y ago

Getting hit by a Cybertruck as a pedestrian is likely considerably safer than being hit by an F-150, a Hummer or any other similarly sized truck or SUV. Pedestrian impact regulations should make the Cybertruck design illegal, as well any modern truck design. IMO, the laws should be written so that the height of the 1996 F-150 is legal and the 1997 F-150 should be illegal for non-commercial purposes in cities. 1: https://twitter.com/WholeMarsBlog/status/1731918392800510345/photo/1 https://twitter.com/WholeMarsBlog/status/1731918392800510345... 2: https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/vehicles-with-higher-more-vertical-front-ends-pose-greater-risk-to-pedestrians https://www.iihs.org/news/detail/vehicles-with-higher-more-v...

303uru 3y ago

It's a failure of US policy that this thing will be on the roads (this coming from a Model 3 owner). This angular, crumple-less, overly fast death machine has no place on public roads.