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There are various indexes of how LGBT+ friendly countries are. For example, equaldex lists Tanzania as rank 181 out of 197 countries (lower is better), with a t

There are various indexes of how LGBT+ friendly countries are. For example, equaldex lists Tanzania as rank 181 out of 197 countries (lower is better), with a total score of 12/100 (higher is better, best is Iceland at 92-100). They list their methodology and how their scores are computed, so if you want to present a factual counter-argument you are welcome to (I'm not an expert on the matter). But it seems to me that there is, prima facie, evidence for the claim that Tanzania is one of the least safe countries for LBGT+ people in the world.

Planktonne 3y ago
What's the cut-off value for "not safe to hold a conference"? Is it applied fairly?
rob74 3y ago
Never been to Tanzania or Zanzibar, but I would assume that Zanzibar, being dependent on tourism, is more tolerant. Still, if I were gay and that would be punishable with life imprisonment in a country, I would avoid it...
arp242 3y ago
That site mostly just looks at legal protections, which don't necessarily say all that much about the "facts on the ground". It also has a few opinion polls, but I don't rate those all that much either. And there can be huge variations within countries, and nuances in what is and isn't considered "bad". There are 61 million people in Tanzania, and it's three times the size of Germany in terms of surface area. It's a big place. A few charts is not a "fact". Or I mean, it is I guess, but that doesn't automatically mean it describes reality in any meaningful way. Obviously Tanzania is not the best place to be gay, but details and nuance does matter, and can make huge differences.
- niam 3y ago
  Vibes on the ground are not fact. Actionable law is. I agree with the people saying that this is in-effect a wholesale rejection of conferences in Africa, and that we should be mindful of that and work on a compromise. But how is it sensible to expect organizations to act on so-called "facts on the ground"? If those facts haven't already been leveraged to meaningfully affect policy, then there's a burdening question of "why not?"
  - arp242 3y ago
    > Vibes on the ground are not fact. Actionable law is. Is the law actionable? Is it enforced? What do the courts do? How does the police act? There's a million factors that radically change what "the law" says. Weed is illegal in the Netherlands. Always has been. Never been legalized. Going by the "facts" of the law would lead to some views of the country that do not align with any sort of meaningful reality. > But how is it sensible to expect organizations to act on so-called "facts on the ground"? If you don't know the reality of the situation then maybe you shouldn't act at all because you're ignorant about the entire thing? I'm ignorant on this topic too; don't really know anything about Tanzania. But I'm also not claiming things about it, or think I know anything meaningful from ten seconds of scanning a website.
    - niam 3y ago
      > Is the law actionable? Yup. I'm pretty willing to defer to what human rights organizations and the country itself say about their laws. > Weed is illegal in the Netherlands. Which: 1. is something that should change if it's an inaccurate reflection of the country 2. is nonetheless a far discussion from (what should be) a fundamental human right > If you don't know the reality of the situation then maybe you shouldn't act at all because you're ignorant about the entire thing? The Python Software Foundation didn't act on enabling this conference; that's precisely why the OP exists. Your argument, if you're defending the OP, is instead that we should act on our supposed "ignorance" in the face of laws which say one thing and internet people say another thing.
  - grotorea 3y ago
    > Vibes on the ground are not fact. Actionable law is. I really think this is a view that only makes sense in stable countries with strong rule of law, which I don't think is the case for most of the world. And even in the First World. Are Americans in states that legalized marijuana afraid of a random cop arresting them due to it being federally illegal? Is the average European concerned of being arrested for movie piracy? Seriously there are a lot of unenforced laws around the world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unenforced_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unenforced_law Not meant to be an argument for either side of this specific case, just a general opinion. Only looking at vibes is not enough but only looking at the law in the books is also not enough.

Planktonne 3y ago

What's the cut-off value for "not safe to hold a conference"? Is it applied fairly?

rob74 3y ago

Never been to Tanzania or Zanzibar, but I would assume that Zanzibar, being dependent on tourism, is more tolerant. Still, if I were gay and that would be punishable with life imprisonment in a country, I would avoid it...

arp242 3y ago

That site mostly just looks at legal protections, which don't necessarily say all that much about the "facts on the ground". It also has a few opinion polls, but I don't rate those all that much either. And there can be huge variations within countries, and nuances in what is and isn't considered "bad". There are 61 million people in Tanzania, and it's three times the size of Germany in terms of surface area. It's a big place. A few charts is not a "fact". Or I mean, it is I guess, but that doesn't automatically mean it describes reality in any meaningful way. Obviously Tanzania is not the best place to be gay, but details and nuance does matter, and can make huge differences.

niam 3y ago
Vibes on the ground are not fact. Actionable law is. I agree with the people saying that this is in-effect a wholesale rejection of conferences in Africa, and that we should be mindful of that and work on a compromise. But how is it sensible to expect organizations to act on so-called "facts on the ground"? If those facts haven't already been leveraged to meaningfully affect policy, then there's a burdening question of "why not?"
- arp242 3y ago
  > Vibes on the ground are not fact. Actionable law is. Is the law actionable? Is it enforced? What do the courts do? How does the police act? There's a million factors that radically change what "the law" says. Weed is illegal in the Netherlands. Always has been. Never been legalized. Going by the "facts" of the law would lead to some views of the country that do not align with any sort of meaningful reality. > But how is it sensible to expect organizations to act on so-called "facts on the ground"? If you don't know the reality of the situation then maybe you shouldn't act at all because you're ignorant about the entire thing? I'm ignorant on this topic too; don't really know anything about Tanzania. But I'm also not claiming things about it, or think I know anything meaningful from ten seconds of scanning a website.
  - niam 3y ago
    > Is the law actionable? Yup. I'm pretty willing to defer to what human rights organizations and the country itself say about their laws. > Weed is illegal in the Netherlands. Which: 1. is something that should change if it's an inaccurate reflection of the country 2. is nonetheless a far discussion from (what should be) a fundamental human right > If you don't know the reality of the situation then maybe you shouldn't act at all because you're ignorant about the entire thing? The Python Software Foundation didn't act on enabling this conference; that's precisely why the OP exists. Your argument, if you're defending the OP, is instead that we should act on our supposed "ignorance" in the face of laws which say one thing and internet people say another thing.
- grotorea 3y ago
  > Vibes on the ground are not fact. Actionable law is. I really think this is a view that only makes sense in stable countries with strong rule of law, which I don't think is the case for most of the world. And even in the First World. Are Americans in states that legalized marijuana afraid of a random cop arresting them due to it being federally illegal? Is the average European concerned of being arrested for movie piracy? Seriously there are a lot of unenforced laws around the world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unenforced_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unenforced_law Not meant to be an argument for either side of this specific case, just a general opinion. Only looking at vibes is not enough but only looking at the law in the books is also not enough.