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Situation: There are three competing Clojure development environments. Three!? Ridiculous! We need to develop one universal Clojure environment that covers eve

Situation: There are three competing Clojure development environments. Three!? Ridiculous! We need to develop one universal Clojure environment that covers everyone's use cases. Situation: There are fourteen competing Clojure development environments.

pharmakom 3y ago
This comment has been repeated many times. I think there is even an XKCD. Anyway, it’s not very helpful. If the 3 existing solutions are all deficient in some way then a new standard may be a good idea. And besides that, we may not realize that what we have is deficient until someone explores the space a bit. Edit: Please forgive my tone, I’m weary from seeing this repeated so many times and you have unfairly taken the brunt of that!
- civilitty 3y ago
  woosh They've been exploring going on 16 years. It's time to stop exploring and start exploiting.
  - pharmakom 3y ago
    It takes decades for programming tools to settle. Consider that most working developers today are using languages that wouldn’t have impressed a PL researcher in the 80s.
- pzs 3y ago
  Indeed there is an XKCD on this: https://xkcd.com/927/ https://xkcd.com/927/
BoiledCabbage 3y ago
> Situation: There are three competing Clojure development environments. > Three!? Ridiculous! We need to develop one universal Clojure environment that covers everyone's use cases. Wait, your argument is that it's a bad thing that users have choices of dev env for their language? How in the world is that a negative criteria? Would JS be better if it could only be written in a single dev env? I'm assuming I'm missing something here as otherwise this makes no sense to me.
- acupofnope 3y ago
  It's a joke referencing this XKCD comic: https://xkcd.com/927/ https://xkcd.com/927/
  - nerdponx 3y ago
    Right, but the joke is misplaced here. nobody is talking about developing standards.
silcoon 3y ago
Where you saw that they are competing?
sokoloff 3y ago
The only very commonly used language that I can think of with a single dev environment is Excel. Every other one (c, c++, Java, various .Net, python, Ruby, and yes, Clojure) has a variety of editors and dev tool sets in use. Is choice of tooling somehow bad?
- owl57 3y ago
  > The only very commonly used language that I can think of with a single dev environment is Excel Not sure if this is still the case, but last time I tried to write something in Kotlin it didn't have decent support in any editor outside of JetBrains.
  - Capricorn2481 3y ago
    And that's been a negative for Kotlin for a while now
- freedomben 3y ago
  I would disagree that Java has a variety of editors and dev tool sets in use. Of course there are occasional people that branch outside of jet brains, but they are a tiny minority. Most Java projects I have worked on are dependent on IntelliJ. Given this end the fact that many clojure people come from Java, it does not surprise me at all to see this attitude.
  - sokoloff 3y ago
    Interesting. I would have expected "Java devs not using Jet Brains" to vastly outnumber those using it, rather than being a tiny minority. Trying to estimate their sales, it seems like JetBrains is around $400M/yr in revenue. Looking at their pricing, it seems like $400/user/yr is a fair estimate, which suggests around 1 million paying users for JetBrains. Oracle claims 10M or more Java devs (undoubtedly many of those are dabblers in Java rather than 2000 hours/year users, but JetBrains sells to a lot of non-Java devs as well).
    - 3y ago

pharmakom 3y ago

This comment has been repeated many times. I think there is even an XKCD. Anyway, it’s not very helpful. If the 3 existing solutions are all deficient in some way then a new standard may be a good idea. And besides that, we may not realize that what we have is deficient until someone explores the space a bit. Edit: Please forgive my tone, I’m weary from seeing this repeated so many times and you have unfairly taken the brunt of that!

civilitty 3y ago
woosh They've been exploring going on 16 years. It's time to stop exploring and start exploiting.
- pharmakom 3y ago
  It takes decades for programming tools to settle. Consider that most working developers today are using languages that wouldn’t have impressed a PL researcher in the 80s.
pzs 3y ago
Indeed there is an XKCD on this: https://xkcd.com/927/ https://xkcd.com/927/

BoiledCabbage 3y ago

> Situation: There are three competing Clojure development environments. > Three!? Ridiculous! We need to develop one universal Clojure environment that covers everyone's use cases. Wait, your argument is that it's a bad thing that users have choices of dev env for their language? How in the world is that a negative criteria? Would JS be better if it could only be written in a single dev env? I'm assuming I'm missing something here as otherwise this makes no sense to me.

acupofnope 3y ago
It's a joke referencing this XKCD comic: https://xkcd.com/927/ https://xkcd.com/927/
- nerdponx 3y ago
  Right, but the joke is misplaced here. nobody is talking about developing standards.

silcoon 3y ago

Where you saw that they are competing?

sokoloff 3y ago

The only very commonly used language that I can think of with a single dev environment is Excel. Every other one (c, c++, Java, various .Net, python, Ruby, and yes, Clojure) has a variety of editors and dev tool sets in use. Is choice of tooling somehow bad?

owl57 3y ago
> The only very commonly used language that I can think of with a single dev environment is Excel Not sure if this is still the case, but last time I tried to write something in Kotlin it didn't have decent support in any editor outside of JetBrains.
- Capricorn2481 3y ago
  And that's been a negative for Kotlin for a while now
freedomben 3y ago
I would disagree that Java has a variety of editors and dev tool sets in use. Of course there are occasional people that branch outside of jet brains, but they are a tiny minority. Most Java projects I have worked on are dependent on IntelliJ. Given this end the fact that many clojure people come from Java, it does not surprise me at all to see this attitude.
- sokoloff 3y ago
  Interesting. I would have expected "Java devs not using Jet Brains" to vastly outnumber those using it, rather than being a tiny minority. Trying to estimate their sales, it seems like JetBrains is around $400M/yr in revenue. Looking at their pricing, it seems like $400/user/yr is a fair estimate, which suggests around 1 million paying users for JetBrains. Oracle claims 10M or more Java devs (undoubtedly many of those are dabblers in Java rather than 2000 hours/year users, but JetBrains sells to a lot of non-Java devs as well).
  - 3y ago