4 ms·

> You can't claim it's common. cough kindle... cough

nomel 3y ago
Are you aware of any cases where they didn't refund [1]? [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/18/technology/companies/18amazon.html https://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/18/technology/companies/18am...
- stbenjam 3y ago
  What good is that? If I buy a book or a movie I want to own it forever not until the company decides to take it back regardless of giving a refund…
- mvdtnz 3y ago
  I don't think that's the point. If the industry is going to regularly make me go through incessant cycles of purchasing, getting refunded, rebuying (for the same price?) then I'm going to pirate the content. What an absolutely absurd expectation.
  - johnnyanmac 3y ago
    I thought the point was ownership and how flimsy ownership lead to Piracy. Not a personal rant on how your bad customer service experience justifies your decision to pirate. I don't care if people "steal" from billion dollar corporations. But let's not mince words and pretend it's some Robin Hood act of altruism. The companies already took that piracy into account on their budget book anyway; they won't change their ways over this. That whole Gabe Newell quote about "piracy is a service issue" goes both ways. Piracy isn't always convinent and plenty of people don't wanna set up plex servers and search torrents and organize their library to get "the best experience". They just want to turn on device and play/watch/read seemlessly
    - mvdtnz 3y ago
      What? Unilaterally refunding a purchase I made years ago isn't "bad customer service". It's just a company being shitty and not caring. I am the party that acted in good faith and purchased the content! What are you even talking about?
      - johnnyanmac 3y ago
        Companies don't like refunding either in all fairness. And your phrasing makes it sound like this happens to you regularly. I don't think "refund" is the best use of word here. That's usually a customer returning a product. And a company with bad refund policies tends to have bad customer service.
    - rowanG077 3y ago
      So from your perspective it would be oke if randomly thieves enter your home, "take" some stuff from you and leaving behind a calling card so you can arrange to get paid for it.
      - johnnyanmac 3y ago
        This metaphor breaks down because you don't own the servers hosting the stuff in question. It's not your house to begin with. And it's not my point at all in that comment. I'm just saying most 'thieves' aren't trying to prove they are good people by stealing like how piracy arguments oh so often go here. Nor trying to pretend they are archivist saving artifacts from disappearing off the face of the earth. They are either greedy, desperate to survive, and in a few rare cases a pathological disorder. It's premium entertainment, and people either want to consume a product but dont/can't pay. It's that simple. and I'm not saying that from a judgmental POV either. I've done it quite a bit as a grade schooler.
        rowanG077 3y ago
        The entire point is indeed that you can't own it. You saying it's not comparable because you don't own the servers is non-sensical. It's not like you can choose not use the servers. Well you can. You have to pirate it.
        johnnyanmac 3y ago
        There's plenty (most of the) comments talking about ownership, I have nothing more to add on that topic. It's only tangentially related to my main point in that it's an argument used to defend piracy. And it's IMO a futile argument because people can't agree what "ownership" is. For me, I try to find drm free copies of games when possible, or physical media when that fails. That's enough for me to feel "ownership". ---- I simply wanted to talk about the internet attitude towards piracy in this thread. I've done it but I never boasted around about slaying some corrupt corporation by ripping an ISO off a disc, or simply finding a torrent. No, I did it to either not pay for a game or to mod games with no native mod support. I'm not a good person to begin with and I don't pretend I'm a good person by pirating.
- lp0_on_fire 3y ago
  "We broke into your house last night and took that book off the shelf. But we left 20 bucks on the counter so it's ok!"
  - nomel 3y ago
    In the case in that link, the publisher was not legitimate. Amazon (literally) sold a pirated copy. They refunded, allowing you to buy a non-pirated copy. The alternative would be to swap it out for a copy from a legitimate publisher, but I assume there are laws around swapping goods out from under people.
- tedsanders 3y ago
  Yes. When the old online Dominion lost the license to the Dominion card game, they didn't refund buyers with cash; they refunded the buyers with some kind of digital dollars to spend on their other unattractive products. So essentially every dollar spent on Dominion expansions was lost. Really soured me on the idea of purchasing online board games.
delecti 3y ago
Is it common? I only know of the ironic removal of 1984, and that was in 2009. I've got 500+ books in my kindle library and am not aware of it ever happening to me. And to be clear, I wouldn't be surprised if it has happened again since, but I've never heard of any, so I agree with the GP comment's assertion that it isn't common.
- JodieBenitez 3y ago
  I don't know if it's common, but I've seen enough of it that I don't trust companies with their practice. Also it goes both ways: Remember when Apple forced a U2 album on iTunes users ?
  - acheron 3y ago
    They didn’t “force” anything, they made it available to download if you wanted.
    - jkestner 3y ago
      https://www.eonline.com/news/1071481/remember-when-apple-forced-a-u2-album-on-us-all https://www.eonline.com/news/1071481/remember-when-apple-for...
    - amatecha 3y ago
      If you haven't used Apple ecosystem stuff you may not realize, but there are many ways in which this album surfaces, such as simply pressing Play on your Apple Watch (without having specified any song)... I've accidentally played U2's music so many times since Apple "gifted" it to me, despite having zero interest in hearing that music at that time.
    - JodieBenitez 3y ago
      Nope. It was right there in my music collection where it doesn't belong.

Are you aware of any cases where they didn't refund [1]? [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/18/technology/companies/18amazon.html https://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/18/technology/companies/18am...

stbenjam 3y ago
What good is that? If I buy a book or a movie I want to own it forever not until the company decides to take it back regardless of giving a refund…
mvdtnz 3y ago
I don't think that's the point. If the industry is going to regularly make me go through incessant cycles of purchasing, getting refunded, rebuying (for the same price?) then I'm going to pirate the content. What an absolutely absurd expectation.
- johnnyanmac 3y ago
  I thought the point was ownership and how flimsy ownership lead to Piracy. Not a personal rant on how your bad customer service experience justifies your decision to pirate. I don't care if people "steal" from billion dollar corporations. But let's not mince words and pretend it's some Robin Hood act of altruism. The companies already took that piracy into account on their budget book anyway; they won't change their ways over this. That whole Gabe Newell quote about "piracy is a service issue" goes both ways. Piracy isn't always convinent and plenty of people don't wanna set up plex servers and search torrents and organize their library to get "the best experience". They just want to turn on device and play/watch/read seemlessly
  - mvdtnz 3y ago
    What? Unilaterally refunding a purchase I made years ago isn't "bad customer service". It's just a company being shitty and not caring. I am the party that acted in good faith and purchased the content! What are you even talking about?
    - johnnyanmac 3y ago
      Companies don't like refunding either in all fairness. And your phrasing makes it sound like this happens to you regularly. I don't think "refund" is the best use of word here. That's usually a customer returning a product. And a company with bad refund policies tends to have bad customer service.
  - rowanG077 3y ago
    So from your perspective it would be oke if randomly thieves enter your home, "take" some stuff from you and leaving behind a calling card so you can arrange to get paid for it.
    - johnnyanmac 3y ago
      This metaphor breaks down because you don't own the servers hosting the stuff in question. It's not your house to begin with. And it's not my point at all in that comment. I'm just saying most 'thieves' aren't trying to prove they are good people by stealing like how piracy arguments oh so often go here. Nor trying to pretend they are archivist saving artifacts from disappearing off the face of the earth. They are either greedy, desperate to survive, and in a few rare cases a pathological disorder. It's premium entertainment, and people either want to consume a product but dont/can't pay. It's that simple. and I'm not saying that from a judgmental POV either. I've done it quite a bit as a grade schooler.
      - rowanG077 3y ago
        The entire point is indeed that you can't own it. You saying it's not comparable because you don't own the servers is non-sensical. It's not like you can choose not use the servers. Well you can. You have to pirate it.
        johnnyanmac 3y ago
        There's plenty (most of the) comments talking about ownership, I have nothing more to add on that topic. It's only tangentially related to my main point in that it's an argument used to defend piracy. And it's IMO a futile argument because people can't agree what "ownership" is. For me, I try to find drm free copies of games when possible, or physical media when that fails. That's enough for me to feel "ownership". ---- I simply wanted to talk about the internet attitude towards piracy in this thread. I've done it but I never boasted around about slaying some corrupt corporation by ripping an ISO off a disc, or simply finding a torrent. No, I did it to either not pay for a game or to mod games with no native mod support. I'm not a good person to begin with and I don't pretend I'm a good person by pirating.
lp0_on_fire 3y ago
"We broke into your house last night and took that book off the shelf. But we left 20 bucks on the counter so it's ok!"
- nomel 3y ago
  In the case in that link, the publisher was not legitimate. Amazon (literally) sold a pirated copy. They refunded, allowing you to buy a non-pirated copy. The alternative would be to swap it out for a copy from a legitimate publisher, but I assume there are laws around swapping goods out from under people.
tedsanders 3y ago
Yes. When the old online Dominion lost the license to the Dominion card game, they didn't refund buyers with cash; they refunded the buyers with some kind of digital dollars to spend on their other unattractive products. So essentially every dollar spent on Dominion expansions was lost. Really soured me on the idea of purchasing online board games.

delecti 3y ago

Is it common? I only know of the ironic removal of 1984, and that was in 2009. I've got 500+ books in my kindle library and am not aware of it ever happening to me. And to be clear, I wouldn't be surprised if it has happened again since, but I've never heard of any, so I agree with the GP comment's assertion that it isn't common.

JodieBenitez 3y ago
I don't know if it's common, but I've seen enough of it that I don't trust companies with their practice. Also it goes both ways: Remember when Apple forced a U2 album on iTunes users ?
- acheron 3y ago
  They didn’t “force” anything, they made it available to download if you wanted.
  - jkestner 3y ago
    https://www.eonline.com/news/1071481/remember-when-apple-forced-a-u2-album-on-us-all https://www.eonline.com/news/1071481/remember-when-apple-for...
  - amatecha 3y ago
    If you haven't used Apple ecosystem stuff you may not realize, but there are many ways in which this album surfaces, such as simply pressing Play on your Apple Watch (without having specified any song)... I've accidentally played U2's music so many times since Apple "gifted" it to me, despite having zero interest in hearing that music at that time.
  - JodieBenitez 3y ago
    Nope. It was right there in my music collection where it doesn't belong.