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I think about this story a lot. Is it bad it's nearly a price I'd pay? Is it dumb that I wish more than anything, that I could live forever? All I wish, is tha

I think about this story a lot. Is it bad it's nearly a price I'd pay? Is it dumb that I wish more than anything, that I could live forever? All I wish, is that I could learn all there is to learn, see all there is to see, and create many beautiful things. It is so sad to me that I will die before we solve the immortality problem.

lacker 3y ago
I don't think it's dumb to read this and think, I would pay that price, I would volunteer. The piece does its best to make it sound terrible, but still, it only takes one person to agree to make this system totally consensual. There are millions of people in the world, you don't think we'll find a single fanatic who's excited about the ability to copy themselves in order to do drudge work forever? Acevedo has done a great service to humanity, to help get all this valuable work done. Even if he himself has experienced much suffering.
sockaddr 3y ago
It's not dumb. It's a feeling that I share. However even if the technological hurdles are overcome I'm not sure I'd remain viable after learning that my loved ones (and especially children) are long gone if they couldn't be preserved. When I was a teen and before making a family Immortality seemed like a dream. Now it seems like it could actually be a nightmare if not implemented properly. EDIT: To add further. Just being with my child, holding their hand, listening to their little stories about toys etc now feels much more important than any future time as an immortal instance freely exploring the wonders of the universe. If you want to chase immortality don't have kids. It will seriously change how to perceive things.
- csdvrx 3y ago
  > now feels much more important than any future time as an immortal instance freely exploring the wonders of the universe If you had this preference before, would you say having kids altered your preferences? > If you want to chase immortality don't have kids. It will seriously change how to perceive things. Then I wonder if, in a sense, kids are like drugs: they alter your utility function to put something else first in line, so preserving yourself comes at best as a 2nd choice after prioritizing the first choice. I don't think it'd be rational to "chose" to get addicted to a dangerous drug, and for the same reason just like you I think that you shouldn't have kids if you want to chase immortality.
  - sockaddr 3y ago
    > Then I wonder if, in a sense, kids are like drugs Oh yes. Very much like the brain slugs in Futurama > and for the same reason just like you I think that you shouldn't have kids if you want to chase immortality. Yes. However having children does "turn on" certain emotions and modes of thinking that you don't get otherwise (at least I didn't prior), so I'd think that not having kids also deprives one of a very key aspect of the human experience.
    - csdvrx 3y ago
      > Very much like the brain slugs in Futurama I didn't get your reference (not from my generation) but I could find a description on https://futurama.fandom.com/wiki/Brain_Slug https://futurama.fandom.com/wiki/Brain_Slug and yes, that's a perfect example of what I meant!!! > However having children does "turn on" certain emotions and modes of thinking that you don't get otherwise (at least I didn't prior), so I'd think that not having kids also deprives one of a very key aspect of the human experience Then the same could be said by, say opioids or cocaine addicts to rationalize their behavior "it turns on certain emotions and modes of thinking you didn't have prior" - but that's the definition of altering the utility function! > not having kids also deprives one of a very key aspect of the human experience. In a statistical sense, I think that's true, but if you believe that it's ok to alter your utility function, then it should also be ok to decide to get addicted to a dangerous drug people use to be more like them? Say like teens vaping because their fried do it, adults drinking alcohol at parties... except children are defined as something positive, for prosocial reasons (like in your example, if the brain slug political party was in power)
p1esk 3y ago
I don't see much difference between brain uploading and having children.
- sockaddr 3y ago
  Bob [1], is that you? [1]: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/32109569-we-are-legion-we-are-bob https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/32109569-we-are-legion-w...
  - p1esk 3y ago
    I haven’t read it, but looks interesting!
remram 3y ago
In this story, you don't live forever. You live a few hours, in a limited simulation, to interact with an individual that is alien to you. Then you die. The fact that an infinite number of you will get to experience this doesn't make you "live forever".
- theamk 3y ago
  the "your clone lives for a few hours to interact with an alien individual" is the price. but the image can live much longer (story says 59 years), and you can talk to it.. so the benefits are great. Moving to computer to escape illness or debiliating accident is an obvious use case, but there tons of smaller benefits. Make a 12-person startup where each employee is yourself. Unsure whether to learn Lisp or haskell? Learn both in two instances. Feel last 20 years of your life wre a mistake? Restore old backup.. The possibilities are endless, but the price is high. Would you want this? I am not sure myself but I can imagine someone else saying yes.
  - remram 3y ago
    The possibilities for every body else. The cost for you. From your point of view, you step into a machine, and then you randomly experience one of the interactions with a user. If the image truly lives forever, you have overwhelming chance of interacting with somebody completely alien to you, who will ask you things you don't fully understand, and marvel at your primitiveness. Then you die. You have some small chance of living for a few years with a user you understand. Probably still much shorter, less rewarding, less free than if (by chance) you are the version of yourself that steps out of the scanner and lives their natural, physical life instead. It's a Prestige situation [1] except you have been tricked into it, because the image does not get used according to the terms you signed. "There'll be people just like me forever" is very different from "I live forever", to me. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prestige_(film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prestige_(film)

lacker 3y ago

I don't think it's dumb to read this and think, I would pay that price, I would volunteer. The piece does its best to make it sound terrible, but still, it only takes one person to agree to make this system totally consensual. There are millions of people in the world, you don't think we'll find a single fanatic who's excited about the ability to copy themselves in order to do drudge work forever? Acevedo has done a great service to humanity, to help get all this valuable work done. Even if he himself has experienced much suffering.

sockaddr 3y ago

It's not dumb. It's a feeling that I share. However even if the technological hurdles are overcome I'm not sure I'd remain viable after learning that my loved ones (and especially children) are long gone if they couldn't be preserved. When I was a teen and before making a family Immortality seemed like a dream. Now it seems like it could actually be a nightmare if not implemented properly. EDIT: To add further. Just being with my child, holding their hand, listening to their little stories about toys etc now feels much more important than any future time as an immortal instance freely exploring the wonders of the universe. If you want to chase immortality don't have kids. It will seriously change how to perceive things.

csdvrx 3y ago
> now feels much more important than any future time as an immortal instance freely exploring the wonders of the universe If you had this preference before, would you say having kids altered your preferences? > If you want to chase immortality don't have kids. It will seriously change how to perceive things. Then I wonder if, in a sense, kids are like drugs: they alter your utility function to put something else first in line, so preserving yourself comes at best as a 2nd choice after prioritizing the first choice. I don't think it'd be rational to "chose" to get addicted to a dangerous drug, and for the same reason just like you I think that you shouldn't have kids if you want to chase immortality.
- sockaddr 3y ago
  > Then I wonder if, in a sense, kids are like drugs Oh yes. Very much like the brain slugs in Futurama > and for the same reason just like you I think that you shouldn't have kids if you want to chase immortality. Yes. However having children does "turn on" certain emotions and modes of thinking that you don't get otherwise (at least I didn't prior), so I'd think that not having kids also deprives one of a very key aspect of the human experience.
  - csdvrx 3y ago
    > Very much like the brain slugs in Futurama I didn't get your reference (not from my generation) but I could find a description on https://futurama.fandom.com/wiki/Brain_Slug https://futurama.fandom.com/wiki/Brain_Slug and yes, that's a perfect example of what I meant!!! > However having children does "turn on" certain emotions and modes of thinking that you don't get otherwise (at least I didn't prior), so I'd think that not having kids also deprives one of a very key aspect of the human experience Then the same could be said by, say opioids or cocaine addicts to rationalize their behavior "it turns on certain emotions and modes of thinking you didn't have prior" - but that's the definition of altering the utility function! > not having kids also deprives one of a very key aspect of the human experience. In a statistical sense, I think that's true, but if you believe that it's ok to alter your utility function, then it should also be ok to decide to get addicted to a dangerous drug people use to be more like them? Say like teens vaping because their fried do it, adults drinking alcohol at parties... except children are defined as something positive, for prosocial reasons (like in your example, if the brain slug political party was in power)

p1esk 3y ago

I don't see much difference between brain uploading and having children.

sockaddr 3y ago
Bob [1], is that you? [1]: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/32109569-we-are-legion-we-are-bob https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/32109569-we-are-legion-w...
- p1esk 3y ago
  I haven’t read it, but looks interesting!

remram 3y ago

In this story, you don't live forever. You live a few hours, in a limited simulation, to interact with an individual that is alien to you. Then you die. The fact that an infinite number of you will get to experience this doesn't make you "live forever".

theamk 3y ago
the "your clone lives for a few hours to interact with an alien individual" is the price. but the image can live much longer (story says 59 years), and you can talk to it.. so the benefits are great. Moving to computer to escape illness or debiliating accident is an obvious use case, but there tons of smaller benefits. Make a 12-person startup where each employee is yourself. Unsure whether to learn Lisp or haskell? Learn both in two instances. Feel last 20 years of your life wre a mistake? Restore old backup.. The possibilities are endless, but the price is high. Would you want this? I am not sure myself but I can imagine someone else saying yes.
- remram 3y ago
  The possibilities for every body else. The cost for you. From your point of view, you step into a machine, and then you randomly experience one of the interactions with a user. If the image truly lives forever, you have overwhelming chance of interacting with somebody completely alien to you, who will ask you things you don't fully understand, and marvel at your primitiveness. Then you die. You have some small chance of living for a few years with a user you understand. Probably still much shorter, less rewarding, less free than if (by chance) you are the version of yourself that steps out of the scanner and lives their natural, physical life instead. It's a Prestige situation [1] except you have been tricked into it, because the image does not get used according to the terms you signed. "There'll be people just like me forever" is very different from "I live forever", to me. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prestige_(film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prestige_(film)